[SPOILER] vanrober and BAII

[vanrober]

Hm, I'd say the city grabs the fish immediately and then builds Granary>Lighthouse for the lake. If it works all resource tiles and the lake it still has four food surplus, a very good production and can grow at a good rate into cottages/help the capital with cottage growing.

Do you have graphs so you can see how strong your neighbors are in military?

So you dont see necesary that farm? there is so many plains hill which will need much food to be worked isnt it?

Also i bring the graphs, if you need/want any other tell me so i make a pic in next turn!

This is the graf of power of my neightbours: El grillo is scaring me hard



This is the demos

From getting 15 gpt after sailing i get 60gpt, what a fail not getting that tech till turn 135. At least finally got it and now i got some economy to keep investigating. Learning this game is hard, it seem.

[Suite]

Well, every bit you learn about the game is something positive which you can use next time! I wouldn't be too worried, some of your opponents are very strong players.

No, I would not build the farm and the plain hills should be whipped, if the city gets that big. That is generally (until the Modern Era) more effective in terms of production.

[vanrober]

Well, every bit you learn about the game is something positive which you can use next time! I wouldn't be too worried, some of your opponents are very strong players.

No, I would not build the farm and the plain hills should be whipped, if the city gets that big. That is generally (until the Modern Era) more effective in terms of production.

Ill get another cottage then in that spot and ill try to catch them up.

El grillo took all amicalola territory so he is kind of overfeed. Im making some units but not wiping since im not seeing any huge stack of units. I hope thats not a mistake.

What do you thing it should be my strategy? maybe rush guilds and make knights to take mjmd? he is alredy in war vs superdeath. Should i go turtle mode and try to take as long as posible? im not sure what to do.

Also there is 2 cities i think i could build too.
 this one to fill and also in hill so will be protected

   

And im doubting between this 2

   
The city one has more production and the other one more defense, not sure what i should get

Also this is demos, which has improve in gnp and i got bad prod because im working all cottage as possible. 

   

Im start doubting the gold aim since my neighbours are getting really big in power:


   

[Suite]

You asked for my advice so these would be my thoughts:

1. You are way behind your neighbors, in power as well as in GNP. It's likely they attack you when they feel ready for it (Knights/Engineering or later with Riflemen). Therefore you have to make yourself unpleasant to conquer and that means first of all: Construction and then immediately (!) start building/chopping/whipping catapults until you have a nice stack of them, at least around 8-10. No offense meant, but when you reach Guilds, your powerful neighbors will likely have riflemen, maybe even cannons. That's why you need to think about how you want to defend yourself with this severe disadvantage.

2. As soon as possible scout your island in the south and place one or two cities, depending on more food, there. If there is no more food, build the city on the tundra hill, so it gets both food resources without cultural expansion and the hill bonus for defending. Start buidling a settler now, maybe in Nongoma directly after the Galley (one chop and then double whip or how you see fit).

3. Bad production numbers in the demographic are mostly (yes, there are exceptions, for example if you see at the very beginning that somebody is preparing a warrior rush) irrelevant, because a good chunk of the "production" comes in via whipping/chopping, which is not part of the production number.

4. Regarding Mjmd: Assess the situation in detail before making decisions. I can't help you with this because I know the inside from Mjmd's and Superdeath's stories.

5. You notice the Egyptian War Chariot right behind your border? He won't seek to have a good time at the local taverns. Try to scout with some of your units in his land near your border too and in Mali/Korea as well.

6. I notice a market in Nongoma. This is not a good decision at all and I'll try to explain why:
- The market costs 150 production! This is equivalent to 1,5 settlers. Or 3 catapults.
- The market does nothing noticeable. Nongoma works not a single cottage, let alone precious metals. Right now Nongoma yields 1 (city tile) + 2 (fish) + 4 or 6 (foreign trade routes) commerce. If you are short on gold and therefore are building Wealth in a city, the market's bonus is not applied to Wealth, because Wealth is "built" via production. So the market gives you 2,25 gold in total when you are on 100% gold generation. That is very inefficient and ineffective and if you research a technology with 100% beakers, the market does absolutely nothing.
- The library on the other hand is commerce wise as inefficient, but it's a lot cheaper thanks to Creative, so it doesn't hurt as much.
- You do want maybe one or two markets in very good and/or big commerce cities with a lot of commerce-rich tiles. But you simply can't afford building markets en gros until much later in the game. If you build many of them now, chances are very high you don't last as long as you would need in order to make them a worthy investment.
- Some years ago, I thought of building these multiplier buildings as soon as possible is the best way, because it would be "efficient" to have them early, therefore enhancing all yields earlier. This is a serious miscalculation because of opportunity costs: Having all other stuff later because of building these expensive multipliers hurts your even in the long run, for example, if you reach a key technology two turns later because you built markets instead of Wealth/Research. Maybe these are exactly the turns you would have needed to complete a strong wonder or to recruit/whip new/more weapons.

> Markets are only at special circumstances helpful now so please don't build more. They destroy your production.

[vanrober]

You asked for my advice so these would be my thoughts:

1. You are way behind your neighbors, in power as well as in GNP. It's likely they attack you when they feel ready for it (Knights/Engineering or later with Riflemen). Therefore you have to make yourself unpleasant to conquer and that means first of all: Construction and then immediately (!) start building/chopping/whipping catapults until you have a nice stack of them, at least around 8-10. No offense meant, but when you reach Guilds, your powerful neighbors will likely have riflemen, maybe even cannons. That's why you need to think about how you want to defend yourself with this severe disadvantage.

2. As soon as possible scout your island in the south and place one or two cities, depending on more food, there. If there is no more food, build the city on the tundra hill, so it gets both food resources without cultural expansion and the hill bonus for defending. Start buidling a settler now, maybe in Nongoma directly after the Galley (one chop and then double whip or how you see fit).

3. Bad production numbers in the demographic are mostly (yes, there are exceptions, for example if you see at the very beginning that somebody is preparing a warrior rush) irrelevant, because a good chunk of the "production" comes in via whipping/chopping, which is not part of the production number.

4. Regarding Mjmd: Assess the situation in detail before making decisions. I can't help you with this because I know the inside from Mjmd's and Superdeath's stories.

5. You notice the Egyptian War Chariot right behind your border? He won't seek to have a good time at the local taverns. Try to scout with some of your units in his land near your border too and in Mali/Korea as well.

6. I notice a market in Nongoma. This is not a good decision at all and I'll try to explain why:
- The market costs 150 production! This is equivalent to 1,5 settlers. Or 3 catapults.
- The market does nothing noticeable. Nongoma works not a single cottage, let alone precious metals. Right now Nongoma yields 1 (city tile) + 2 (fish) + 4 or 6 (foreign trade routes) commerce. If you are short on gold and therefore are building Wealth in a city, the market's bonus is not applied to Wealth, because Wealth is "built" via production. So the market gives you 2,25 gold in total when you are on 100% gold generation. That is very inefficient and ineffective and if you research a technology with 100% beakers, the market does absolutely nothing.
- The library on the other hand is commerce wise as inefficient, but it's a lot cheaper thanks to Creative, so it doesn't hurt as much.
- You do want maybe one or two markets in very good and/or big commerce cities with a lot of commerce-rich tiles. But you simply can't afford building markets en gros until much later in the game. If you build many of them now, chances are very high you don't last as long as you would need in order to make them a worthy investment.
- Some years ago, I thought of building these multiplier buildings as soon as possible is the best way, because it would be "efficient" to have them early, therefore enhancing all yields earlier. This is a serious miscalculation because of opportunity costs: Having all other stuff later because of building these expensive multipliers hurts your even in the long run, for example, if you reach a key technology two turns later because you built markets instead of Wealth/Research. Maybe these are exactly the turns you would have needed to complete a strong wonder or to recruit/whip new/more weapons.

> Markets are only at special circumstances helpful now so please don't build more. They destroy your production.

Thanks suite for all those advices, i really apreciate.

Should i stop building the market in umungudluvu too? 

I didnt understand if you feel i should build a city in the filling spot.

I was making alredy a settler in other city that ends in 2 turns and an archer too.

I have an impi in El grillo's land not seeing any stack of units, maybe he is doing in a deeper spot.

Ill make a bunch of catapults to see if i can stay alive a few more turns. After construction should i go for feudalism for longbows? I might not arrive but, the important part of this game is learning what i do wrong and how to make it better so everythoghts u may share would be awesome!

[Suite]

Ah, the filling spot. Yes, absolutely if you can afford the hammers soon.

Market im uMun: I would suggest you use it as a project if the city has to grow and if there is nothing which has to be built fast.

Settler: Good! The galley is ready too so prepare/work on a workboat for the coastal food.

Yes, Impi are very good scouts. Maybe it deters El Grillo or other people from attacking if they see you are alert and watching what's going on around you.

Now, I'm not very into your game and your position. The problem I see now is, that Feudalism takes quite some time (you have to research all the way from Mysticism). Longbows are not very good against knights, even in cities and even in cities on a hill. The real weapon against knights is Engineering/pikemen (and the additional movement on roads!), but that needs Machinery. My suggestion would therefore be Metal Casting into Machinery for forges and crossbowmen. Remember what I said about building multipliers? Forges are an exception of this rule, because they amplify every chop, every whip (!) and every tile with hammers. Yes, they are costly, but a way better investment than markets. If you feel like you have some 20 turns of time before someone attacks you, forges can be worthwhile and they are arguably the second most important building (right after a granary) until factories take over their place. That being said, if the enemy is at the gates, building new forges is a waste because you want to survive, not completing a forge for your opponent.

[vanrober]

Ah, the filling spot. Yes, absolutely if you can afford the hammers soon.

Market im uMun: I would suggest you use it as a project if the city has to grow and if there is nothing which has to be built fast.

Settler: Good! The galley is ready too so prepare/work on a workboat for the coastal food.

Yes, Impi are very good scouts. Maybe it deters El Grillo or other people from attacking if they see you are alert and watching what's going on around you.

Now, I'm not very into your game and your position. The problem I see now is, that Feudalism takes quite some time (you have to research all the way from Mysticism). Longbows are not very good against knights, even in cities and even in cities on a hill. The real weapon against knights is Engineering/pikemen (and the additional movement on roads!), but that needs Machinery. My suggestion would therefore be Metal Casting into Machinery for forges and crossbowmen. Remember what I said about building multipliers? Forges are an exception of this rule, because they amplify every chop, every whip (!) and every tile with hammers. Yes, they are costly, but a way better investment than markets. If you feel like you have some 20 turns of time before someone attacks you, forges can be worthwhile and they are arguably the second most important building (right after a granary) until factories take over their place. That being said, if the enemy is at the gates, building new forges is a waste because you want to survive, not completing a forge for your opponent.

I feel like i have nothing to build till construction which will get me around 3 turns so ill try to take a settler out.

workbout done in this turn.

The problem i have is that being this my semifirst multiplayer game i have not the instinct to know if someone is declaring war soon or not. I feel like if elgrillo comes to me plemo will atack him, im not sure if he can afford the war vs me. I guess you are whaching their threads and you cannot tell me anything, but those are my thoughts, i was more afraid of Ramk right now, since he already declared war vs me and we have not open borders. Also i feel kind of scared since im getting into the southeast city my troops and im kind of not defending the north which is kind of weird since im thinking this right now writting this down.

So this are the pictures of this turn:

Demos:

   

Power:

   

My land from space 

   

ElGrillo's land:

   

So my impis recovered that info: Wildcat, BloodMtn and Sumol Wilds got and axe and spear each. Las trampas a warrior and Good Mtn nothing. It doesnt seem to me anything threating yet

[Suite]

Ah, one moment....you did change your research project back to Construction? Because catapults are mandatory, especially versus stronger opponents. At Civforum, a strong player stated in a war: "I don't take a defense seriously without catapults" and it's true. If your enemy is weaker than you and on top of that has no source of collateral damage, all you need to do is building a stack and roll over the landscape.

[vanrober]

Ah, one moment....you did change your research project back to Construction? Because catapults are mandatory, especially versus stronger opponents. At Civforum, a strong player stated in a war: "I don't take a defense seriously without catapults" and it's true. If your enemy is weaker than you and on top of that has no source of collateral damage, all you need to do is building a stack and roll over the landscape.

Well, im making sure to get all your advices and im investigating all you are saying, i have 0 pickers on construction yet, Its 2 turns in 100% but i cant aford that money so i will use 1 turn 100 and 2 turns on 0% adn then another in 100%

My economy is not good and it takes time. But since you told me to get construction im doing it!

[vanrober]

Im seeing elgrillo moving catapults towards nord, so i guess there is a incoming war between plemo and him. He has already machinery so i cant even think in bother him.

I guess the problem will be ramk