Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[Krill]

You're still going to lose though. Keeping up in tech doesn't mean you're going to win.

But that's not the whole point. The tech laggards can still generate gold and buy tech, thus influencing the tech pace at the front. That's the reason for the high number. The fact that tech laggards can keep up in tech isn't going to stop a PBEM4 scenario from occurring. Putting the bonus at 75 will basically have no effect on the game, it needs to be higher so 2nd place has a reasonable option to research in 1st places' footsteps. Does it need to be 250? Probably not, but it can't really go lower than 200.

[Rowain]

I just wonder who will be the idiot to research a tech first in a group of equal developed players?

[Sullla]

I also think that increasing the known tech bonus is a poor idea. Basically, anyone who researches a tech at first-rate takes a gigantic penalty. First-rate research becomes a poison pill. Hording gold and waiting for others to discover techs first becomes the power strategy. (Metagaming out the wazoo here...) As others have said, waiting for 2 others to discover techs will boost your research rate by 100%. Feels very, very gamey. And why would we be so determined to reward teams who play poorly? Shouldn't they lose, as GES said? Why is that a bad thing? If someone gets an insurmountable lead, then GG and start a new game. I seem to remember everyone hating Pitboss #3, because the tech trading made the whole thing nothing but metagaming and it was completely impossible for any side to ever get a tech advantage. We don't actually want to create that gameplay again, right?

This is from the perspective of someone who has zero interest in playing this mod, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Krill]

It'll probably be me. What use is stockpiling gold that you can't use to buy anything when there is a tech that you are going to want sooner rather than later? Still run binary, but as we've always done that except when trying to hide obscenely high tech rates, it's not like that's a change.

Also...which tech?

[mackoti]

In my opinion the bonusees are way to big.The people which are research good shoud be rewarded not punished because of that.

for example you are aiming for burocracy for faster research, well after you discover that tech me wich i dont have it and i reseach after you i will get more than one which already researched( this is just nuts)

[Krill]

I also think that increasing the known tech bonus is a poor idea. Basically, anyone who researches a tech at first-rate takes a gigantic penalty.

Leaving it at 30 does nothing to the tech pace. When a leader can make 500 bpt at breakeven by t100, a small cumulative bonus to others (25-40%) won't let you over haul them unless you making bpt that is pretty close. And then only if you research the same techs, instead of trying to trade with them so you can pull ahead of the pack.

First-rate research becomes a poison pill. Hording gold and waiting for others to discover techs first becomes the power strategy. (Metagaming out the wazoo here...) As others have said, waiting for 2 others to discover techs will boost your research rate by 100%.

It's a balancing act, how much commerce and beakers do I want, instead of focusing everything on generating beakers. PB2, PB4 and PBEM4 (both versions) show just how bad the game play is when you can focus purely on science, and how few real economic choices there really are. The one right choice is to always tech as fast as you can.

And in your scenario, you are going to give up first to research bonuses. You're giving up swapping into later and better civics such as Emancipation, Free Speech, Nationalism, Police State, State Property, giving up your chance to get choice wonders like SoL and Kremlin, and leaving yourself open to getting attacked by units an era in advance. You're giving up control over your tech path and delaying economic improvements.

Another problem is you don't know where the other players are in relation to you in the tech tree. You could be waiting a very long time.

Feels very, very gamey. And why would we be so determined to reward teams who play poorly? Shouldn't they lose, as GES said? Why is that a bad thing? If someone gets an insurmountable lead, then GG and start a new game.

When insurmountable leads are attained by a few players playing poorly and the rest having no effect on the game, that isn't good balance. Even if you can keep up in tech, you aren't going to win the game unless you pull a Munro and focus on other parts of the game. Is it a reward if you can keep up in tech? It doesn't sound like a reward to be backwards. As it is none of the techs prior to Paper can be traded for, so you have to research those yourself before you can start to tech trade. That'll let the pack stratify and for some players to get leads.

I seem to remember everyone hating Pitboss #3, because the tech trading made the whole thing nothing but metagaming and it was completely impossible for any side to ever get a tech advantage. We don't actually want to create that gameplay again, right?

No. The problem with PB3 was the map and the diplomacy, not TT in itself. If it weren't for TT that map would have been unplayable.

[Krill]

250% is too much especially in small games and potentially causes strange gold collecting and tech rushes.

For me the main point for higher percentage is in the NTT games where there are runaway civs where some kind of catch-up mechansim could be good. 100% sounds quite good to me in most cases. When there are 10 or more players it could be 150% and with 18 maybe even 250% or close to it.

The tech prerequisite bonus is 20% per arrow. Useful number to compare against.

In the games that have used an increase in the known tech modifier, and had tech trading enabled...the slower players didn't catch up even with the bonus at known tech bonus at 100 and two other players knowing the techs that were getting researched, and that was in a 3v2 with the short, leading, side only having one techer. PBEM2.

[bato]

Would it be possible to make the known civ bonus to techs exponential? So the further behind you are the bigger the bonus is and if you are just researching the tech the no1 guy researched you only get a small bonus.
Would also be exponential for how many people have the tech.

[dazedroyalty]

Thinking about the known tech bonus, I have to say that I don't like the increase being so large either. I like the idea of some kinda of increase, but eight fold seems unreasonable. Especially with TT on, it would not take nearly that big of increase to catch up.

Further, let me be honest, if that were the change, I would definitely save gold and do research once it was known by other civs. To not do that would be a silly idea since I want to win. I'd only need to self tech essential thigns at the beginning and then save gold for a long time and then blow through tons of techs.

All that said, I'm still willing to play in a game with whatever the change ends up being because if nothing else, it'll be interesting.

[Krill]

How about a mod move everything from my post with the change log over the the RB mod thread please?

Also, on that note, what about this: lower the known tech bonus to 150, which means for every player that knows a tech you get a 25% increase in research. What I'd prefer would be a two phase known tech bonus (30 to 50 early game, and larger once paper gets discovered) but I can't see a way to code that.

Also, an example for that number. When you want to tech Currency, you don't tech Alphabet first to give you an extra 20% bonus, do you? You get it asap through Maths.