Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[scooter]

Also, on that note, what about this: lower the known tech bonus to 150, which means for every player that knows a tech you get a 25% increase in research. What I'd prefer would be a two phase known tech bonus (30 to 50 early game, and larger once paper gets discovered) but I can't see a way to code that.

What about no tech bonus at all before Paper and then Paper "turns it on"... That sounds feasible to code I"d think. Would allow the players who play well to get a big lead, but would make it so that those who are in 2nd and 3rd still have a shot at keeping up... While leaving the stragglers that are still way behind where they belong.

[Krill]

If you can code that, sure, that'd be fine.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

You could actually do that at Education. You know, because you could learn it from other civs.

150 is better.

[Krill]

Don't want to favour a Lib beeline, or force tech paths...

[GrafvMonteDisco]

RB mod 1.40

Change log 1.40. This is on top of previous changes:

Traits

CRE - Loses cheap Libs.
PRO - Loses cheap Castles, D1 on archery and GP units.
EXP - Gains +35% production bonus to work boats.
ORG - Cheap Libs. Yes it brings it up to 4 cheap buildings but that's about all it does, considering -50% civic maintenece doesn't add up to much.


Techs:

Writing - Enables Map trades. No longer enables Open Borders.
Alphabet - Enables Open Borders. No longer enables Tech trading.
Paper - Enables Tech trading. No longer enables Map trading.
Education - tech cost increased by 25%.
Printing Press - tech cost increased by 50%.
Nationalism - tech cost increased by 50%.
Gunpowder - tech cost increased by 50%.
All techs after this - increased by 100% of base cost.
Hunting - enables pastures, cost increased by 50% from 40 to 60. No longer enables camps.
Animal Husbandry - enables camps, and scouts. No longer enables pastures.
Archery - tech cost decreased 2/3, from 60 to 40


Misc:

Known civ tech bonus - increased to 250 from 30


Civs:

Celts - Dun now gives G2, not G1.
Portugal - Feitoria now costs 120h, from 180h.
Rome - Preat S7. Forum increased to +35% GPP generation
Inca - Quechua lose Combat 1.
Persia - Apothacary gives +1 free spec, loses +2 health. Immortal is now a S5 spear
Carthage - Cothon decreased to 80 hammers. Numidian cav increased to S6, C1, loses melee bonus and F1.
France - Salon +1 free spec, -1 artist
Vikings - Berserker gains C1 for free

I think the idea of making Organized better is good, but I don't feel like they should just get another cheap building. I think there have been a couple ideas how to improve it and I think one was more free units which I liked quite a bit. Free unit per city or sth.

Another thing that caught my eye was the free C1 for Berserkers. I don't like that because the aggressive trait loses some value. The unit should get a promotion you cannot get through a trait. Something along the City Raider Line or another strength point would be appropriate IMO.

And something with the pictures and description of the immortal is wrong. You got a pic of a spearman and an immortal at the hunting tech and on the splashscreen for your civ the immortal is still listed as a chariot replacement. I like the idea of a 5 str spearman though.

Apothecary and Salon have the same special feature now. Couldn't we just leave the +2 health on the apothecary and reduce the cost of the Salon or sth?

Just kicking around ideas here so feel free to comment

[mostly_harmless]

It's supposed to be a test game, no?
Just fire it up at 250% bonus and see what happens. If things get weird after 50 turns, you stop, adjust the RBmod and start a new game.
After all RBPBEM16 did not even made it to T70.

If this would not be a Pitboss but a PBEM I would join.

mh

[Serdoa]

I agree with mh - just do 250% (or 150% if everyone can live better with that) and try it out. The worst scenario is that we agree after some turns that it does not make sense. And if we try too, we probably can get some of the early turns played rather quickly, giving us an idea about the change in like a month or 2.

[Krill]

I think the idea of making Organized better is good, but I don't feel like they should just get another cheap building. I think there have been a couple ideas how to improve it and I think one was more free units which I liked quite a bit. Free unit per city or sth.

Problem is I don't know how to code free units, and free units aren't all that helpful in themselves - reference the arguments over the barracks change for AGG. The Lib change is something along those lines for ORG, it gives it another way to pop borders (30 hammers compared to 20 for the monument, but you get twice the culture and +25% beakers and 2 sci slots), for an early game boost. it then has a mid game boost in Court Houses and a late game boost in Factories, plus the miscellaneous bonus to cheap Light Houses.

Another thing that caught my eye was the free C1 for Berserkers. I don't like that because the aggressive trait loses some value. The unit should get a promotion you cannot get through a trait. Something along the City Raider Line or another strength point would be appropriate IMO.

Actually free CR is a nice idea, but would it be balanced? You could quite easily get CR3 Amphib Zerks that way, for +75% city attack. You be at 8v8.4 against CG1 LB with fort bonus in a 40% city, with at least 3 move galleys. Admittedly you'd be able to get walls, or CG2 LB, but CR Zerks would be pretty powerful. How about a base +10% to city attack? That'd lower the maximum from a newly built Zerk to +55% but the maximum would be +85%. Actually, considering there would be ways to defend against Zerks, like parking triremes on coastal tiles, free CR probably isn't a bad idea.

Nice one

And something with the pictures and description of the immortal is wrong. You got a pic of a spearman and an immortal at the hunting tech and on the splashscreen for your civ the immortal is still listed as a chariot replacement. I like the idea of a 5 str spearman though.

Yeah, I've seen the problem and I think I've fixed it. Still testing atm.

EDIT - Everything says it is a spear, apart from when you go to Civilopedia>civs>Persia (mouseover) and it says chariot. But I don't know how to fix that.

Apothecary and Salon have the same special feature now. Couldn't we just leave the +2 health on the apothecary and reduce the cost of the Salon or sth?

A lot of people complained about Persia being a completely meh civ with a useless chariot replacement (it's fine for SP but humans don't defend with archers). I suppose with a new spear replacement that can slaughter WE and deals with knights quite well it's OK to leave a fairly boring UB in the game.

OTOH, the Salon just sucks, even it made cheaper.

[Krill]

I've talked with scooter about his proposed change, and I'm waiting to see what T-hawk says. If T-hawk thinks it is possible and could code it, then I think that's a good implementation we can reach. That's the implementation that known tech bonus doesn't get turned on until paper.

[GrafvMonteDisco]

how about we get rid of the bonus for the lighthouse for org then and give that to another trait. It would fit exp too with their cheaper workboats, but I don't know if that's too powerful.

I tried the mod with libs to pop the border and it's really nice to play so I like that idea now.

Another thing that is underused in my opinion is upgrading units. Maybe we could make unit upgrades cheaper like ingenuity in ffh and add that to a weaker trait.

I think we still have to keep thinking about the Salon. Are there ressources left we could add so they give happiness or health? If the building sucks then this mod is probably the way to change it

With what I said about apothecary and salon I meant to keep you change and for the apothecary keep the health bonus and reduce the cost of the Salon. To sum up

apothecary: -free spec, +2 health
salon: -free spec, reduced cost

And a general thought: What you said about having boost all game long should be the theme when we design the traits. Maybe it is possible to spread the features out a little.