This is why I ask, what tech other than gunpowder should privateers need. Optics does mean that if the tech leader pushes straight to Astro, there is no immediate counter, and there shouldn't be. If there were no alternative tech needed then that would bring privateers 1.5k closer, which at breakeven costs can be up to 10 turns extra.
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[SPOILER] PB37: Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the most aggressive of them all?
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Further thought: look at what the beelines need:
Astro requires Calendar (probably a given anyway due to resources and happy), Currency (it's a given, it pays itself back and wealth builds speed up tech pace as needed), CoL (Caste, generate 1 GP, throw the GA, get to more GS for Astro bulb), Machinery, Optics, and Astro via a double bulb which is no extra beakers (or a few hundred max depending on map size). Gunpowder requires Feudalism (1.5K with Monarchy), Guilds (1.5K), Gunpowder (2.5K), but doesn't require Compass, Optics or Astro. Guilds and Optics are a wash, which leaves the cost of Feud and Gunpowder versus that of Astro, and neither Gunpowder or Feud are bulbable. So Privateers come a few turns later in an even race against a straight research of Astro, or up to 15 turns later against a double Astro bulb? That seems OK to me. I don't think that Moving the Privateer to Gunpowder can be said to limit the effectiveness of an astro beeline by the tech leader given good forward planning. The privateer doesn't come quickly enough to ever fully close that window, what it does do is provide an option for defense to a tech leader that chooses to not rush Astro and instead focus on other techs. And I don't buy the argument that galleons aren't abusable either: there is a counter, and players understand the counter is more galleons of your own. Obviously you're not going to see people get run over by just galleons either as they are just part of a force needed to capture cities. So how about this: Privateer, available at Gunpowder, require Compass, [Copper or Iron]. Strength 6, 4 move, Hidden Nationality, Can Attack without Declaring War. Cost 80 (only change from current stats are tech requirements and loss of sentry). Galleon, available at Astro, strength 4, 4 move, carries 4 land units. Cost 80 (gains 1 transport capacity) Caravel, available at Optics, strength 3, 3 move, has +135% attack against privateers. Cost 50 (I checked combat calculator, needs to be +135% otherwise C2 privateers get odds on defense, so this is a nerf to CHM specifically) That then leaves just the Carrack and EIM to deal with. I'd say Carrack = Caravel + 2 transport capacity, and EIM = Strength 5 galleon, or strength 6 galleon with -35% against privateers?
And on second though, it might make sense to give the privateer a bonus to attack against the SoL to keep that area fresh as well. +50% on attack gives 66% odds of winning, enough to suggest people don't wander about with just SoL...
(October 21st, 2017, 05:15)Krill Wrote: And on second though, it might make sense to give the privateer a bonus to attack against the SoL to keep that area fresh as well. +50% on attack gives 66% odds of winning, enough to suggest people don't wander about with just SoL... Sol are expensive and slow and request a dead end thech and you think they need a counter? 
I do not think SoL need a hard counter before ironclads. I think it would be beneficial if there was a reason to not wander around with single SoL or small stacks of SoL: Giving Privateers (80 hammers) 50/50ish odds against SoL (120 hammers) is enough to make that happen, and keeps combined arms relevant at sea.
Edit: an example. If a privateer has +50% attack against an SoL, it has roughly a 2/3 chance of winning on attack given equal promotions. On defense against SoL, the privateer has ~24% chance of victory depending on promotions. If a frigate is on the same tile as the SoL? The Privateer has 11% odds of victory on attack and the same odds as against the SoL on defense. Such a change to the privateer has no major effect except to support combined arms and is a only a nerf to the SoL in terms of operational usage. Add to this, SoL are only worth building if an opponent has over committed to building frigates, plus provide slightly better culture defence removal (but same per hammer efficiency as frigates). This sort of change isn't as large as you'd think.
And in ingame news, dtay just libbed Steel. Last turn I think 2 people got Chemistry, because I could drop the slider to 70% and get Chemistry in 2 turns, this turn he finished Lib then Steel and I expect to see a bunch of cannons finish. I have 2 chariots keeping an eye out on the border with Carthage.
Other news: Gavagai seems to have lost another stack against DS. No idea how, but it looks like he has ignored siege this game. His attacks have been too fast for slow movers to keep up. That's probably enough to relegate him to 4th and me to third, or at least joint third. I have a double shrine city FFS, and I'm able to trigger another GA in 6 turns plus AGG/CHM against his EXP/CRE with Mids, and we have similar stat lines. Now if only newbies hadn't died too quickly...
Did I miss the specific reason you want to change the Privateer? Can you point me to a post?
Completed: RB Demogame - Gillette, PBEM46, Pitboss 13, Pitboss 18, Pitboss 30, Pitboss 31, Pitboss 38, Pitboss 42, Pitboss 46, Pitboss 52 (Pindicator's game), Pitboss 57
In progress: Rimworld
I just posted in the mod thread. Tldr isn't that the astro bulb is op it's that the cost of defending is too high.
In this game, that is highlighted quite well by the sheer cluster fuck that was Couers second war against me causing him to implode. That's still happening btw, lowest score, and now food for dtay. But I ended up investing so much into tech to fight him that I lost the opportunity to stack up and eat China. That war also shows the problem with single unit stacks and charismatic, the access to the second promotion is too much to overcome on water but not an issue in land combat with the diversity of unit types. Diversification of naval units does help rein that minor issue in.
dtay has been neglecting his duties: New game signup below.
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...p?tid=8965 |
