RB Pitboss #1 Spoilers - Joai of the Incans - Krill/Memphus

[Krill]

After sleeping on the issue, me and MEmphus have come up with 2 possible, workable plans: Offense, and Growth.


Offense

As above, get HBR, chop out a settler from CC (settled next turn on the plains hill for plains sheep and grass cows) for DD, the city for the choke point using either or both of the corn and fish, build a settler in AA for EE to use the other, cows and horses, get the horses hooked up, chop out HA, hit Dreylin asap before he can trade for IW and or archery (and pray he hasn't researched either, or gotten copepr for spears). The aim is simply to screw up his expandsion and weaken him to the extent that we can handle both him and sunrise at the same time.

Realistically, this is a little hard to do, because we can't get Archer and HBR until around t68 at the earliest, and then a further 3-4 turns to get the HA in position at the southern city, means that we wouldn't be able to attack at t75 at the earliest, if Dreylin had expanded towards us, which a force that isn't that great (no promos), and we wouldn't be able to get many chariots out either. We could get horses hooked quicker by going for the ones directly to the south of CC, but this then delays the start of hte attack because the road does't extend as far towards Dreylin.

I'd still like to try this sort of attack, but the question arises, which is more likely to hurt Dreylin? 5 HA early on, or us expanding towards him to take his land? Which leads us to:


Growth

Research Maths, and pray we can defend with a paper military. Start getting cottages hooked up around BB and CC, while then chop out a settler for DD and get the settler out of AA for EE. Play dumb, so don't choke sunrise, and instead try to negoitiate border treaties with both Sunrise and Dreylin along with long NAPs. Settling will be delayed but GNP gets pretty high, and growth is quicker, meaning we can slave workers and settlers out of BB and CC as required every 10 turns whilst still teching, and use AA as the production city. We'd still be going for the choke city and another one a little south of there first, to make the border with Dreylin secure (and make sure any resources between us that we need, we can get our hands on). Then we'd fill out our little core asap and just follow the cottage cheese approach to keep on teching, and full strength chopping to get everything online asap. Those EXP Terraces are just crazy good as a first improvement, especially if you can time it to get the first chop the turn that you settle the city (which we can do, if we can get enough units to stop barbs from spawning...)

This isn't as hard core damaging to Drelyin and Sunrise, but provides us with as solid a base as we can hope for for others to rally around after the Alliance precipitates. Personally I think it is only a 3 team alliance, so that might not seem as threatening, but the larger it becomes, the less options for alliances everyone else has, so the more attractive a proposition we become.


Addendum: The Quechua friom AA is heading west, we both hope we find someone not tainted by this alliance fairly soon, but we don't hold out hope of finding anyone before t70. We currently have 5 workers and at the start of next turn 3 cities, and we are 1 below the top of the GNP, which as a non creative civ is pretty solid. I hope that puts us amongst the leaders, but otherwise we might have a problem...

[Krill]

General Economic overview:

Cities: 3, Populations 5/1/1

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417...erview.jpg


AA

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417.../t53AA.jpg

The capital, size 5 and capable of reaching size 6 in 3 turns already has a terrace in place. Current tiles to work are the Fish, Ele, and cottage, and as many mines as possible. As soon as CC can take over the cottage (ie it doesn't have any more cottages to work) the cottage should be shifted over. It should make 1 Quechua while growing to size 6, then stick to workers and settlers as much as possible.

BB

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417.../t53BB.jpg

The second city, not all that great, but shortly should have access to the clams (t54), cow (t60 at earliest) and 2 cottaged grasslands as well as a couple of mined hills depending on the MM (which we are making up as we go along). Nothing special atm, but it should become a decent city once we start slaving it or it sticks to working hills at size 5 (around t70).

CC

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417.../t53CC.jpg

Settled this turn, this is the city that's going to end up cottaged to the eyeballs...with a measly 7 cottages pre bio, which quite frankly sucks, but nothing we can do about that. I'm still wondering what to get out of this city after the terrace (due eot t55), considering everything from chopping a settler, worker to not chopping anything.


Workers: 5, 6 due by t57 at the latest.

Currently they are running around like blue arsed flies, with Marlene chopping a forest at CC for the terrace, Del Boy and Trigger ditto at BB, Boycie chopping a forest at AA to drop into a worker at size 5, and 1 worker that I haven't decided what to do with yet (mainly because of CC). We actually need about 7 workers in my mind, because if we are aiming to have DD down in 10ish turns at the choke point we need to dedicate one worker to roading there for 9 turns before settled, ie now, but if we get cottages up first we can delay.

So I'm reckoning chopping more workers is on the agenda, 1 out of AA, one out of CC...


Graphs

Demographics:
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417...o0tech.jpg
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417...axtech.jpg

GNP:
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417...t53GNP.jpg

MFG:
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417...t53MFG.jpg

Crop Yield:
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417.../t53CY.jpg

As you can see, not doing all that badly, and I suspect the horrendously high crop yield is due to whoever has that size 7 city (I think it is ZPV; Charismatic, and the two civs with religion I know the capital name of, and there aren't size 7). GNP figures show I am teching better than almost everyone (as the bonus beakers from other teams knowing writing is about 1-2 beakers, so the large gap is pretty good, and will get better when crabs are online next turn). MFG is interesting, as we only have 2 mines up and running atm, and we are second, but we are also EXP, IMP and chopping like crazy, so I doubt if anyone is quite up to our level of production (ZPV excluded, but I don't exactly know what Dreylin is up to...but he should only have a size 4 capital, as AA is size 5 and fifth on the Top 5 Cities screen).

The biggest problem is that if regoarrarr, Sunrise and Dreylin are in a 3 way alliance, what is to stop them adding to it? I'd theoretically have to be teching at about 3-6 times the rate of the average to keep up depending onthe amount of members in the alliance, which is patently a ridiculous plan to attempt, so what to do...

[Krill]

recieved in chronological order:

Krill,

We decided it would be best if we clarified our tech trading positions to you so that you can make the best tech decisions for your civ without letting us give you any false ideas. First, both of our civs value close and friendly relations with our neighbors. We hope we can continue to share news and thought of the map, and point our units towards new contacts.

However you've offered both of us several tech proposals, which have generally been quite fair. Unfortunately after looking over the tech tree closely we're not sure any early tech deal is going to make sense, except for possibly trading for some cheaper techs in the first couple columns. Before either of us met you we have already made some provisional deals with other civs to trade for several techs. At this point our trading partners have confirmed they are on board. Therefore we believe we have most possible trades lined up.

Anyways, we wanted to share this with you so that you could make informed choices about your tech path.

-League of Lin and sunrise

Hey Killer Krill,

How's it going! :-)

I am back at work (yay monday! ) and trying to get back in the swing of things. I missed a chance to play my turn this morning but that's fine since I have a few kinks to work out of my plan. Nothing like getting everything working just so, only to realize that cottaging takes 5 turns, not 4 :-(.

As for HBR, I do have elephants, as I'm fairly sure everyone does (if not in the capital then nearby). I guess I'm a little concerned about just agreeing to a tech trade without knowing how we're going to trade (i.e. Alphabet). What if I agree to trade with you, then someone comes along and says that they have a deal that I can get Alpha and HBR by trading with them and someone else? Have you already started HBR and/or Sailing? Should I research Alphabet?

As for an anti-krill / memphus alliance, there is not one in place as far as I know. Having said that, your reputation(s) do precede you, so maybe there is a bit of hesitance? Nothing that I'd say is a pure anti-alliance like you talked about, but does that make sense? I mean, there is the argument that you already have say, a 10-20% advantage just due to Civ Skills / experience, so trading with you helps you more than it would help me. On the other hand, there is also the argument that being your ally / partner would raise my Civ game up to your level. I've obviously seen that in SANCTA that you (me? we?) treat your allies well.

Does that all make sense? I should be around most of the rest of the day if you want to chat about it

dan.
regoarrarr
India

They got the strategy right...just wtf, admitting they had the tech trades lined up was just dumb. Really can't understand the motivation to admit to that. I'd also call BS on regoarrarrs' claims that there is no anti alliance; I'd be pretty sure that it wasn't in the front of their minds, but once we turn up and start offering trades, wondering if their dare deal with us, and deciding that they can't risk it, is tantamount to the same thing. As as they've said eff off...

[Krill]

Thinking about it a little more, the only obvious reason they admitted to the tech trades is because they don't want me as an enemy, and they they still want cordial relations. Which is something I could understand if I weren't so jaded and pessimistic about an über-tech alliance out there.

If there is an über-tech alliance out there, and they admit to it, what leverage do they have over me to stop me from screwing with them militarily? And if there isn't an über-tech alliance, then they must be missing some techs, but as Sunrise basically said they don't want to trade anything, if there isn't an über-tech alliance then they have to have decided that they under no circumstances (that they can think of arising in the short term) want to trade with us.

So that means the revelation doesn't follow any logic that I can think of (not that there isn't any, I haven't met the other 6 players yet). I think I'm going to go fishing, and offer regoarrarr an NAP...chat will be uploaded soon.

[Krill]

Krill

I regret to say this but I will have to decline the IW for HBR trade. I previously agreed to a trade for Alpha/IW+sailing trade with the assumption that there would be other parties in the trade. I had only met one person involved in the trade and apparently they neglected to inform me that one of the parties was already researching HBR. This is the hazard of negotiating via intermediaries when you haven't met everyone.

Since I do not want to jeopardize the other trades I have set up I will have to go with the original agreement. I would gladly trade with you other techs that we may have researched separately and do apologize once again. My intention was never to lead you on I was just misinformed as the the full scope of a previous agreement.

I'm actually thankful...we started research into writing this turn...

[Krill]

6:08 PM Krill: yo dude
read the email yet?
and how is work?
Dan: hey
not bad
i'm at lunch
well, i usualy stay in for lunch
6:09 PM but everyone else is out
so it's nice and quiet
Krill: cool
I was wondering about NAPs
6:10 PM Dan: what do you mean?
us having one
or just in general
6:11 PM Krill: well, both
6:13 PM tbh I'm not sure what's going to hapen in this game, I can't see beyond t80ish except in a few circumstanes
so adding a little certainty to it helps
6:14 PM Dan: seems odd to sign a nap with someone who is so far away
Krill: You could say that
but lets be frank
if you reject an NAP with me I know for sure somethings up
6:15 PM Dan: i disagree
i have no plans to attack you
nor i have even heard of any plans to attack you
but
6:16 PM here are some reasons i'd be hesitant to sign an nap with you
a) i don't know where exactly you're located
so it could be that you might found aggressively twoards me
so from that reasoning i'd be wary to sign one
Krill: ooh Templars move, you want a border treaty as well?
Dan: in case that limits either of our peaceful expansion
Krill: ;P
Dan: heh
6:17 PM i'll come back to that
but b) like you said, i have no idea of what teh next 40-50 turns hold
i'm a bit hesitant to limit my options
without really gaining any benefit
(since i think that it is unlikely that you will attack me)
6:18 PM but yeah - i don't know that i woudl get quite as particular as the templars did
but it would be nice to have a bit of border discussion
Krill: tell you what
why don;t we swap a bit of info then?
Dan: ok
you'll probablyg et more out of it than me because i'm a blabber but let's go for it
(after all i'm a blabber, i like to talk)

6:19 PM Krill: distance from our scouts to capitals, from where we met?
Dan: though i should clarify that blabber doesn't mean i can't keep a secret
let me check
Krill: You remember where out warriors met, right?
Dan: vaguely
Krill: I can give the location from sunrises cap for you
7778888 of sunrises capital
was where your warrio was
Dan: ok
6:20 PM my capital is 6999999966 of sunrises's
across a lake
Krill: ok
this might take a while
Dan: lol
Krill: just grabbing a screenshot right now
Dan: i'm not on a civ computer
6:22 PM Krill: 777777777777774444444
from where my warrio was
long way away
especially considering the layout of this land
6:23 PM because that direction is as the crow flies
we really aren't going to be running into each otehr settlers in teh next 40 turns
6:24 PM my warrior was 77778 of sunrises capital
6:25 PM hey, I thought you were promising to blab
Dan: sorry
calculating
Krill: np
Dan: your capital is 35 W 12 N of mine
(i think)
6:26 PM or 12NW, 23W
Krill: something like that
Dan: so there's a lake to the N of where our warriors met
Krill: We'll both end up bording sunrise
well
6:27 PM Dan: are you on the north side of that lake?
Krill: lake or inland sea
Dan: what's the difference?
Krill: hopefully lakes can be turned into 3 food tiles
coastal waters just junk most of the time otherwise
but you're right, I'm being pedantic
6:29 PM Basically, your right, we're to the north (and a little to the west) of that lake
Dan: gotcha
okay
so am i reading the tea leaves correctly that you just planted your 3rd cityi?
Krill: Yeah
6:30 PM Dan: guess beign imp / exp has its advantages!!
Krill: tbh I yanked Sulllas' chain a bit with our start and he seemed to get a litle upset
said it wasn't that great
and compare it to SANCTA
6:31 PM we aren't exactly flying over here
Dan: yeah i think he's messed with the resources
at least the food ones
they seem awfully sparse
Krill: Tell me about it
it took us 15 turns to find a food resource after planting our capital
6:32 PM Dan: yikes
did you not even have one at the cap?
Krill: Sorry, meant other than the ones in the cap
6:33 PM If there wasn't food in the cap I'd probably have blown my lid
Dan: heh
i have a whopping rice in my cap
6:34 PM Krill: eh
land based food is nice though
you can go worker first
Dan: yeah
if i wasn't paranoid about you quechua / impi / immortal having fools
:-D
Krill: hope it is irrigated though, unirrigated rice would be nasty
Dan: it is
6:36 PM Krill: So I think you can see that we aren't going to be settling close to gether anytime soon, as teh paths to each others borders are so twisty
So wouldn't a short term NAP be wise, just so we could relax around each others scouts?
Dan: i was already relaxing around your scout
shouldn't i be?
6:37 PM Krill: I'm a product of an MP environment
Dan: i think a civ that whacks another civ's scout just for fun is bound to lose
ok
Krill: I find it hard to relax period...
Dan: heh
seems like a suicidal move to engender that much ill will for so little gain
6:38 PM Krill: Depends on what your allies think
6:39 PM Dan: who are your allies?
heck, who are MY allies? :-D
Krill: That's why we're chatting!
I'd like to be your ally
6:40 PM Dan: have you scouted much to your west?
Krill: A bit
we have units over there
you scouted much to your east?
6:42 PM Dan: yeah
well some
i've met imhotep to my NE
and shadyforce to my SE
6:43 PM Krill: Do you know if they have units in the area? We started so far to the north meating anyone to the south is much appreciated
Dan: i think i saw a shadyforce unit somewhere near where you and i met
haven't seen any imhotep units in a while
Krill: Well, I hope I can put the woddy 2 Quechua to some good use now then
6:44 PM Dan: yeah
are you done healing?
Krill: yup
Dan: cool
6:45 PM so have you guys already started hbr / sailing?
Krill: We're saving gold for a turn before starting
Dan: ah
Krill: these cities cost money
then again
Dan: heh
6:46 PM Krill: they still make more than they lose
Dan: right
for now
so how far from the north coast is your capital?
or is it on it?
Krill: on it
6:47 PM We got a fish
and didn;t start with fishing
and we exp
:'(
ah well
figure outh te problem
overcome it
Dan: right
soem could argue that your start makes up for you innate skills
6:48 PM balance the field
Krill: why not jsut roll a dice and see who wins
Dan: sounds good to me
give me better odds

6:49 PM Krill: You can have them...
Dan: what's your eta on hbr?
(feel free to tell me that's classified)
6:50 PM Krill: not sure
got cottages coming online
15ish turns?
Dan: not sure? the cdp master himself?!?!?! :-D
Krill: ha
6:51 PM I looked at this start nad thought WTF
seat of the pants
It's more fun this way
and lot less work
6:52 PM Dan: yeah
definitely a fine line between uber planning and just making it up as you go

Correct answer was sure, I'll take an NAP. And yes, there is a correct answer, because I'm the examiner in this situation, and if I feel regoarrarr isn;t being level with me then I can hold it against him. I don't personally, I just feel he could have persuaded me a little better).

I also looked closely at Sunrises capital, and his LoS. I moved the Q1 so that next turn at the end of the turn I'll declare war and move into position to threaten his capital. That gives him exactly 9 hours to defend his capital if it isn't already (please let it be defended...sunrise should have been drilled enough times in RaY), so we might have a chance to steal a worker. More importantly...the only thing that is a threat to a Q is an axe or spear (so long as teh Q is not in a forest), so if we think choking isn't worth while we can just wander straight off through his lands towards teh south, or back off back the the north.

[Krill]

Date for settling of city 4 is t62 with road connection (and an extra 2 workers by then). We going to be running an uber paper military though...

[Krill]

Sunrise just got Monotheism? WTF? Well, it's a great way to expand the borders for Barcelona as a SPI civ. And Broker got Writing...excellent, now I can go max tech on writing and get it that little bit cheaper...(max 2 teams got a tech last turn, one of them mono, and BRoker is now able to give OB, so it has to be Sunrise...)

Also, 6 players ended turn, 4 more to go...

[Krill]

Alea Iacta Est.

I hope they give me an answer before the end of this turn; sunrise mustn't know how important this decision is for him personally...and now everyone has ended turn, they'll know something is up. I've told regoarrarr that I need to know what to research, which is true enough.

[Krill]

Some contingency planning in case we get rebuffed again: Oracle t63 (yes, I know, I know, I'm slipping )

Slight modification of the original plan, researching 210 beakers of worthless techs to Oracle either HBR or Monarchy, but it also stops a tech alliance from slingshotting something valuble. Again. Or I could just play this as a variation of how SANCTA played, oracle MC, shove in a forge somewhere and pray we get the Pyramids again. Think we'll go with Monarchy though, we have wines, so it's worth minimum +2 happy which we could really use.

Using 7 workers to simultaneously chop a wonder is boring though, but necessary it seems...