[SPOILERS] Krill smokes some weed - PBEM50

[Krill]

I was going to do a nice long post about how to choose which leader/civ I want, but really it boils down to this:

Fishing is mandatory, so there are only 5 leaders available: Asoka, Nappy, de Gaulle, Justinian and JC.

Hunting and Myst are worth little in this start, can't get religion, no camp resources, no need for AH early and Agri necessary anyway. So JC and Justinian have to be better due to leader traits. SPI is decent, but I value ORG similar to IMP (V Asoka) but Asoka has Agri so is a safer choice for the start, so Justinian is out. JC I kinda want to play, but I think is just slightly worse due to Hunting v Mining or Agri, though I think he is playable. I'd be aiming for a single worker then settler via double slave.

So I really think the choice comes down to:

• Asoka (Org, Spi) of Netherlands (Agriculture, Fishing)
  
• Napoleon (Cha, Org) of Rome (Fishing, Mining)
  
• Charles de Gaulle (Ind, Cha) of England (Fishing, Mining)
  
• Julius Caesar (Imp, Org) of Viking (Hunting, Fishing)
  
• Justinian (Spi, Imp) of Spain (Fishing, Mysticism)

de Gaulle is the odd one out: if I were picking later on I'd be seriously tempted if I were sure I could land Henge (BW+wb first to slaved worker eot T12, mine and research Agri, then hook rice), but I'm not sure how safe it is. And I've done it before in PBEM2 so I pass on this option.

Napoleon is another choice, same starting techs, but the UB is a blank, UU can be very useful but I think any warfare on quickspeed is a bad idea so whilst good for posturing, I don't want to bluff someone into rushing me. But the issue with starting with Mining is that BW comes out to fast to hook up the rice immediately after, so there is a third option of growing to size 3 first to delay the worker slightly, and get a warrior out for safety. But all of this is just a bit off compared to what I think is going to be my real choice.

Asoka comes in with the perfect techs, Fishing and Agri. I can settle 4 of the settler and get a work boat out after growing to size 2, and then either make a worker with food to finish eot T13, or grow to size 3, and slave it out eot T14 and be up a few hammers with a warrior 1 turn from completion (and behind 1 worker turn). I'm up beakers from the more expensive starting techs, save a turn revolting to slavery, and even have solid late game UU and UB to help me if I drag the game out that long. Because the start is pretty fast, I'm fairly happy taking this combination as first pick and daring the other players to try and win the game early, force a concession. One other point is I have my eye on the GLH. Obviously, ORG is not as good as IND for saving hammers on it, but it's still pretty good. There are 5 forests, of which only 2 I want to chop early on. So this is going to be my pick.

[Krill]

The scout moves 71 BTW; I want to see what that forest hill is 441 of the settler before potentially moving. I just hope if I move I don't settle on copper or horse.

[Krill]

And what does the successfulness of the PBs have to do with anything? It's not like the mod has some quality that makes people less likely to get pissed off at each other or behave in a ridiculous manner like completely ignoring the spirit of the rules. The new PBs are played under AI diplo, and they don't have Lord Parkin in them. That is the difference.

Success can define numerous values, in this instance I'm using it to mean the following: That the games last beyond 150 turns without 1 player being an obvious runaway. I know that a lot of players appreciate not having to play games that are already effectively lost, because it's viewed as wasted time. PBs 5 and 8 (have) lasted a significant length of time whilst providing fresh game play challenges for the majority of players. PB8 map for instance took 4 hours to find, constantly regenerating maps, and would still have been unplayable using base BtS. The fact that players wish to play on different map types, with additional randomness, and enjoy doing with the mod but do not want to do it with base BtS is measure of the success.

Note I'm not saying that the mod is the best thing since sliced bread, or that it is perfect. I'm saying that it fulfils a niche for a segment of the player base. I personally do not care that not everyone appreciates that niche, nor do I have any reason to, but so long as the niche is still wanted there is no reason to alter the mod to meet other players wishes.

[Krill]

Neither of the previous picks surprise me. Sury the straightforward brute force approach and Julius of Vikings works fine if you need to get Hunting early.

[Krill]

I'll be surprised if De Gaulle doesn't fall, I would have expected another Fishing civ to be needed and they would likely have a monopoly on the IND trait.

[Krill]

Called it.

[Krill]

So Ichabod can choose is leader and civ combination for the following:

• Alexander (Agg, Phi) of China (Agriculture, Mining)
  
• Genghis Khan (Agg, Imp) of France (Agriculture, The Wheel)
  
• Augustus (Imp, Ind) of Babylon (Agriculture, The Wheel)
  
• Louis XIV (Cre, Ind) of Persia (Agriculture, Hunting)

• Napoleon (Cha, Org) of Rome (Fishing, Mining)
  
• Justinian (Spi, Imp) of Spain (Fishing, Mysticism)

• Lincoln (Chm/PHI) of Aztec (Hunting, Mysticism)

Alex and Genghis are pretty much trash tier for this game, so they are out. Nappy and Justinian only make sense now if he has a Fishing start, in which case I expect Nappy, and Lincoln is perhaps not the most straight forward of choices depending on food so whilst I can see that pick if he has Deer and could go meditation first fairly safely, I doubt he picks that. So Augustus or Louis, really, and I think it'll be Louis and "Run to the Mids" strategy.

[teleh]

I've been following this, but is the map-script sortof, known?
Like, you have 'interesting' bodies of water from the initial couple of posts about the script (like here):

(...)

, but is everything on the table?
Just wondering out of interest about this considering your assessment that another fishing civ would be needed...
Would also be interested in your thoughts about the map script generally.

[Krill]

The map script obviously hasn't been used in any other games, because it's new, but I sat down and generated a couple of dozen starts to see what they looked like. So it's fair to say that I feel like I have a good idea of how the areas surrounding a start (the FoW) can look, though the tile improvements can still throw me off.

I know that there is water beneath the settler, there is a fish, and I can see the other side of the bay, which looks like two tundra tiles, probably hills, and there is water above just under the FoW. The only two really relevant points that I see are that on this map script it's usually possible to get boats to and from every body of water with forts, in this case 47 and 87 of the settler, and that cities with lots of coast aren't the best late game cities around, so I would want to minimise coast and ocean but I'm playing Netherlands, so whatever, really. I'd prefer it if my cities were coastal but with no more than a few tiles of coast to work.

Whether another Fishing civ is needed isn't something I can really comment on other than it's a possibility: there are lakes and small seas all over the map when waterways setting is used. That doesn't mean anyone necessarily starts close to me either.

[Krill]

And now I wait until tomorrow to get the save.

As interesting as this picking method is, I'm not sure it's really that much better for game balance than other options, when you look at the traits that get ignored and the ones that everyone gravitated towards. It's not like it's even easy to balance them by giving good leaders bad civs, because sometimes bad civs still work well with an unusual start.

I actually liked it most for limiting my choice, because I couldn't decide form the full list whom I wanted to play.