[SPOILERS - NO PLAYERS] PB41 Lurker Thread: RNG Roulette with a Shotgun

[Mardoc]

you can actually capture cities, adding their snowball(buildings, improvements etc.) to yours.

Speaking of which - any opinion on what Commodore needs to overcome 3 archers, an axe, and 2 warriors, in a 40% city on a hill? Are we looking at a capture in a turn or three (with maybe a little healing first), or is he going to have to choke Superdeath and keep building troops for ten more turns?

[Krill]

He pillages, chokes, and withdraws whilst he builds and doesn't have to bother with significant other military.

He now has no reason to go for the capital. Not worth it.

[Mardoc]

He pillages, chokes, and withdraws whilst he builds and doesn't have to bother with significant other military.

He now has no reason to go for the capital. Not worth it.

Presumably eventually he'll want to take it.  You'd delay that until a better unit, then, maybe swords?  Just focus on peaceful building and pick up Iron Working or similar when he runs out of peaceful land to grab?  I've got to figure Superdeath makes a better target than naufrager once Comm has to take the military route again.

I also figure he will leave some units in Superdeath's territory to tempt a tactical mistake.  I could easily see Superdeath gambling on clearing out a pair of Skirms, and losing enough in the attempt to revert to easy pickings.

[Krill]

Swords or HA can work, but he wants to pull back to see if superdeath removes units from the capital to settle new cities, and Commodore needs a navy to then expand overseas and take that stuff as well, when it suits him. Swords are better for that.

The scenario you give is also possible, and works best with available HA to quickly reposition. There are advantages to either plan, or to just rushing to Currency and opening up Construction.

[Krill]

Also, that is about how best to take over superdeath, I'm not saying that this is the right move or how I would do it, just how I'd consider options. Shove down the two cities close to superdeath for the crab/copper and pig/wheat, cottage a bit, grab an island city is probably better, but I do not doubt that Commodore would struggle to find 5 good mainland cities without this war.

[Zed-F]

The usual argument against rushing a neighbour on a toroidal map is that you open the land up for the other neighbours. So maybe you get slightly ahead of far flung opponent A but the person who really benefits is the other direct neighbour B. I think we need to see the map shape and how much this logic holds. If they secured a bunch of backlines they can settle at leisure it was worth it. If all that land is contested it is not.

They have definitely set themselves quite a bit behind a peaceful opening IMO, we need to see if it was worth it and they can catch back up.

More mid game invasions tend to make a lot more sense, because the opportunity cost of the units is lower and you can actually capture cities, adding their snowball(buildings, improvements etc.) to yours.

Would they really have needed a lot less military if they wanted to be peaceful? In isolation, sure. With a neighbor not expected to be aggressive, perhaps — you could opt for a demilitarized border, try to get open borders, see how they respond. In the ancient era, closely neighboring a boxed-in SD? Seems like asking for trouble to run a farmers gambit. Say Comm builds 4 cities - playing defensively, he needs at least 4 skirms for MP/basic defense, another skirm or 2 for front lines, and a couple axes/chariots as a reserve... which looks an awful lot like what he’s built already. They may have set themselves behind a peaceful open, but that was never in the cards with this neighbor setup.

As far as taking over later when you can add their snowball to yours... all fine and good assuming you have enough freedom of action to build your snowball well in the first place. Without this war, I’m not so sure Comm has that freedom. Constantly being on guard against an active SD on his landmass would still slow him on an ongoing basis relative to other rivals with island starts.

[The Black Sword]

Defending with Pro/Cre skirms is really easy IMO. 1 skirm and one ready to be emergency whipped in a front city is already a huge road block. That would have been enough pre-T50 IMO to hold off superdeath compared to whatever he's built by now. Not to mention the psychological factor - superdeath would have to be nuts to attack into that combo.

I don't think the defensive army you mention would be necessary for quite some turns yet in the peaceful scenario.

[Krill]

Superdeath killed an unprotected settler that was within Commodores borders in PB38. I don't think that their in-game relationship was ever going to be straightforward, and that the decision to go to war has to be viewed in that light.

[Zed-F]

Not to mention SD has shown a proclivity to make overly optimistic attacks in PB39 and PB40 that are not very successful, yet are destructive and put both himself and his target behind relative to everyone else (at least, according to Comm). Assuming SD will not do something you judge to be insane, may not be a safe assumption. His threshold for insanity may well be different.

Comm assumed, not without evidence, that a boxed-in SD allowed to grow would try to damage him at some point. This way the damage is on his terms and contained.

[Lewwyn]

Did Naufrauger not see Comm's chariot before he landed the axe and settler?

Even if he didn't he's probably safe now that the settler is behind the hill, but its odd he didn't and he didn't have any hesitation or comment on it.