[SPOILERS] WillPlunder as Mehmed of Arabia: Noobs meet world

[flugauto]

That is a nice demos.

[WilliamLP]

We got Cristo. And Bandit moved in on Molach! This should be interesting.

Reporter chariot:




That stack has 25 infantry, 18 artillery, 4 machine guns, plus some rifles and cannons. Obviously that's enough to annihilate what Molach has in Fortitude now, but he does have a rail network and a ton of units around, though a lot of them are obsolete.




I'm trying to tell Molach that I'm not going to attack him so he can move defensive units near our border. The scenario we don't want is Molach not putting up a fight and just collapsing.

So now we've got Molach and Bandit tied down, Oxy is also at war with Molach from the other side, Retep is checked out, and Xenu is basically bff in this game. If we wanted to attack Oxy, now would be a decent time for it.




This Moai site (which is fairly amazing), is where Retep is keeping an infantry stack. I haven't seen a siege stack yet, and without that he couldn't even scratch us I don't think. Also, he must be feeling really confident in his scouting with airships because many of his coastal cities are guarded by longbows or worse.

Demos after switching to Suffrage + Free Religion:




Now this looks like demos someone could win the game from... And we're not quite at the ceiling yet, there are still quite a few health builds going.

Now that we have Bio, we should probably switch the NE city back to mass farms and maybe build the National Park in there. With the counter at 1400 and needing 4 for a golden age I've just been ignoring great people. But I suspect the math will still make Bio farms + NE + scientists win out over Caste workshops + wealth / research + factory / coal plant.

It's no news to anyone, but this game sure does feel lackadaisical. I'm feeling like there's an extreme amount of micro and planning and plotting that players in the game could be doing but aren't. PB1 in this era had nukes, which change everything, but I think that game seemed so much busier than this one? Obviously I'm part of the reason it's passive. But at this point, can you really blame me for thinking we can probably win the space race?

[Plunder]

I wonder if games get more interesting when there is a complete ranking of the players at the end of the game, rather than just a single winner.
It might provide some incentive for people that are not expected to win the game to keep playing. Maybe just to end up at place 3 instead of 4....

I agree completely with this sentiment. If there was a reasonably practical and fair way to do it, such as through lurker votes, it'd be a great idea. Do you think it makes for a better game if a losing player does everything he can to hinder his worst enemy, or clings on to power for as long as possible?

I would make a better game, simply because even players that will not end nr.1 will still be motivated to play.
Maybe there could be some leaderboards based on this on the new main page? (We do need to think about a good way to rate players)

[WilliamLP]

I would make a better game, simply because even players that will not end nr.1 will still be motivated to play.
Maybe there could be some leaderboards based on this on the new main page? (We do need to think about a good way to rate players)

I still think it's a cool idea. Maybe a panel of lurker judges would be elected with some kind of point system. Assign 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 points to a vote of 6th to 2nd, for instance. And add them up. And the winner would just be the usual winner. And some criteria should be established, maybe competitiveness in economy, combat victories, active play to try and win the game and better your position.

My feeling is succeeding in setting this up would take someone putting in a lot of work, and it would need to be someone a lot more influential on this site than any of us, probably.

[WilliamLP]

Somehow we missed having a Jewish city until now, because this is the first election we've seen. This also enables AP victory, which is not in the banned list. However, it needs 3/4 of the vote to pass, and Xenu has enough to veto it. Apparently, you can't vote yourself backdoor domination this way, the option isn't there if you have more than 3/4 of the vote. But I think there are cheese plays, e.g. if Retep could get just 1 vote short of 3/4 by conquering Xenu cities, then getting just one other person to vote for him. This seems too far-fetched to worry about though. Both the conquering part, and the getting one other person to vote for him part. If Civ is a popularity contest, I don't think he's taking home the prize.




Fortitude proved to be very weak, unfortunately. We'll see the power graph next turn but I think Bandit barely took a scratch here.

Molach took the hint and there's virtually nothing at our borders. And I think of a fish for fish trade as basically a NAP, so I won't take advantage of it. (Admittedly, the reason I treat it as such is that I want to be able to get advantage over other players in other games by proving to be trustworthy in informal alliances.)

But, despite the nice amount of siege here, Molach's stack here is not going to be able to attack even a few Machine Guns. The cannons can't do any damage to them or artillery which is the core of Bandit's army. And unless Molach can start hitting the meat of Bandit's stack (which means getting through the Machine Guns) he's just toast. I'm hoping he can scrounge up a mass of infantry in a hurry.

This is where single player experience can do you wrong I think. It trains you that machine guns are a worthless unit. (What? Spend that many hammers on something that can't attack?) But right in this era they seem necessary since they can't be destroyed in a favorable trade no matter what. (I think? I am aware that Chu-Ko-Nus can actually do collateral to them though...)

Now the question is, is this whole development concerning enough to the chances of winning the game that I need to take action?

Possible moves:
- Abort Bandit's war by moving in on land. We have a pretty good chance of taking a city, and his stack is strong right now, but he'd have to move back to defend and he'd have two fronts to worry about. And we can have tanks rolling off the assembly line very soon. The problem here is it allows Retep to get more of a tech lead.

- Attack Retep. Since Bandit is occupied, this is as good a time as there ever will be, probably. His soft underbelly is definitely his island cities right now. Ideas would be like trying to hide a frigate stack where he can't see it, mass upgrading to destroyers, then owning his navy and going from there. And we could arrange a massive simultaneous blitz where we declare and hit all his underdefended islands at once with transports. The land bridge between us is so long and filled with absolute junk cities, that an attack along there seems pointless for either of us, so if there were going to be a world war, sea control would be the key. A factor is that he has flight now, though...

- Attack Oxy.

- Just sit here and keep teching.

I admit, if I weren't in another PB game right now (and/or Mindy were dedlurking this game, LOL) I could see leaning on the world war option. At this stage the planning would be quite an ordeal. There are so many possible attack angles to reason about literally all over the entire world. On the other hand, Retep isn't putting much thought into this game, and probably doesn't want to spend hours reasoning about it either.

I finally scouted the North Korean terror stack:




This is many knights, yes? I count 89 there with 44 catapults. I wonder how many knights it takes to kill a machine gun? I would have thought that this would be a rhetorical question until now. Obviously this stack can only attack. On defense vs cannons or artillery and anything else it would be hot knife through butter material.

[WilliamLP]

Retep has converted all his hammers to war builds again. Is he still going for Xenu? I don't know.




Retep's transport fleet is at the top of this picture.

I've scouted a battleship of Retep's now. What I do have to be careful of is that my navy can't get suprised and immediately eliminated. I have two navy stacks and both of them are a little underpowered compared to what Bandit and Retep have pointed at them. It's definitely time to build some battleships.

Bandit has invested in a few transports. I'm not sure what they are for. But:




This is why I don't like attacking in Civ 4! That double spike down might as well be a big and free spike up for the rest of the world. I'm getting artillery in 2, have tanks available to build, and can quickly raise enough cash to upgrade a bunch of rifles and cannons to infantry and artillery. And then there's also the draft and even slavery if needed. At this point, I'm feeling like even if Bandit attacks, we have enough to make him hurt for it and maybe still have a chance to win the game.

It's interesting that Civ 4 has a quite extensive matrix around 20th century warfare that very few people ever get to play with! In my games vs the CPU, I've gone for infantry, then if that isn't enough go for tanks and artillery or bombers, or if I feel like a stomp go for modern armor. I've never really touched anything else, or felt like I needed to to win. The tech pace and game in general seem to go so fast anyway. It feels like before you get to use this stuff you're off to space.

I just read http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/air_combat.php. But my largest question is: does air combat actually matter in multi-player Civ 4?

Some thoughts on units...

Marine: We have these now at Industrialism. I've always looked at them as more expensive infantry that don't even beat infantry. But I guess they're supposed to be for attacking machine gun nests and being top defender against artillery. So they'd be great vs someone who has railroad but not Assembly Line yet. Other than that I don't know. I guess in a big stack battle they could attack after artillery when machine guns are the top defenders.

Anti-Tanks: These guys seem kind of bad? At 14 strength they are useless for anything but their ostensible purpose, and they don't even seem to hard-counter tanks. My guess is these are supposed to give an alternative tech route (Artillery) to a civ that is behind to compete with tanks, similar to grenadiers vs rifles. They do get a surface to air defense but machine guns already have that. I think I can forget this unit exists.

SAM Infantry: These need rocketry, and are supposed to counter gunships, I guess. They do get 40% to intercept air, and with the Intercept 1+2 promotions it would be 70% (I think). And today I learned, only the top unit in a stack gets a chance to intercept an air mission, so if air vs ground combat matters it may be good to have one of these in a stack, and no more. (Because other than the intercept they're just power 18 meat which is basically worthless.)

Guided Missile: Also from rocketry. Why would I build this over a bomber, when they die after an attack? I have no idea.

Gunship: The need Rocketry and Flight, and they hard counter tanks. They also withdraw at 25% and flank down artillery. They have good strength at 25 and they can get the pinch promotion. These seem like an incredible counter to any attack that could come at the tech levels we're at now. E.g. these would just laugh at what Bandit is attacking Molach with right now.

Subs + Attack Subs: These feel pointless, since their attack isn't very good and destroyers and airships see them. So why bother?

Conclusions: For defensive trolling, Gunships seem like a pretty good ticket.

[WilliamLP]

Retep was logged in for over an hour and a half, at the same time as Bandit and Xenu. This is more than he's been logged in all month, perhaps. So he's planning something... And it's probably not immediate war with Bandit or Xenu either, if he's concerned about the turn split.

He's now running 0% science, and cash-rushing with Kremlin I suspect. It appears I'm going to need to focus hard on military for a while to equalize the power.




The priorities right now are battleships, infantry, tanks, and we should probably float some cash for upgrades. Also my air scouting net is poor and needs to be improved.

[NobleHelium]

Guided missiles do not require oil.

[WilliamLP]

Well it's quite clear Retep isn't playing to min/max the space race at this point. He's going for Rocketry next, but he's whipping a lot and I see some Bombers too.

Does a player with air power just stomp all over one without, in this game? I have no idea, but I'm going on the theory that yes they do, so I'm going for flight next for fighters. Otherwise I'd want Rocketry for Apollo.

I'm building a lot of battleships. I think I need to try and not lose the seas above all else, and I also feel like I need to keep my navy in one big stack now.

[WilliamLP]

If anyone was expecting an epic turn 250 report, well it's not to be, sorry. This game is more of the same. Retep is massing up a considerable force of air, sea, and land.

My goals right now are don't lose the sea, and fight for the air. Fighters are supposed to be useful for this, right? If I get more boats than Retep, and keep a swarm of fighters around them I think I should be good, based on no experience. Flight comes in next turn and I started some Airship pre-builds which should change to fighters in the queue. (I actually checked the XML to make sure this would happen.)

On land I'm not really worried. Anything Retep can send without sea control will be plodding, and I have lots of cannons which could be upgraded to artillery in an emergency, and a small tank force starting.

Retep has a small sea advantage right now, but I have plenty of canals to hide my navy while it grows. Bandit made no progress from his war with Retep and probably isn't keen to immediately start another one.




Our stats are pretty commanding now, especially the hammers. In the long run that should mean we can keep up with Retep's power while also catching up and passing in the tech race. I hate to be too confident but if Retep can't do some serious damage soon we're looking pretty good.

Random screenshots:




I was just really amused by Xenu's Air Traffic Controller musket, directing bandit and my airships around Retep's fighter patrol.




That's quite the Rube Goldberg aqueduct. (And I still haven't deleted the city marker sign from Ravioli, I now realize.)




Alfredo, the great artist city, is about to steal another town from Bandit! How annoying would that troll city plant be to these guys? It has only a plains farm and two towns to work but amusingly enough it might still be worth the settler.