RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[Maniac Marshall]

Good Morning RB Land!



Here's yet another city working some odd tiles. The reason it's not working the copper is because it's slowing the 'duct so it can whip it and overflow into a yummy 1 turn worker. Not sure what we should build here next... Maybe a pike while we still can? I'm open to suggestions.

Next up Feng Shui:



It's also working an odd assortment of tiles, and even a single engineer building one of those yummy 1 turn workers. I miscalculated the overflow, then had to jump through hoops to work out a way to get the worker in 1 turn! the solution involved borrowing a hill from the capital for 1 turn (actually 2 so that I can get 22 hammers into a temple in 2 turns) I think the next build here should be a temple, double whipped for maximum overflow into... worker. Need workers....

Speaking of needing more workers...



Yeah, it's working forests... the place grows amazingly fast... I'm sending a worker pair up here to mine that river plains hill next turn. I think +7-8 food is a reasonable growth rate in the short term for this place, and we really do want to work more hammers at this place as soon as possible. Or course, we can't afford to work all the hills.. yet. Not till we get a couple more farms done. Once it's up to 30 hammers, I want to get some pikes out of here too.

And here we have our +18 food wonder



I'm not sure what we're doing here yet, but I hope RefSteel will tell me shortly. I've confirmed the availability of stone on T134, so, work your magic if you can...

Finally, we have our two newest cities, fledgling enough that they need no comments yet...




That's it for the city tour. Demographics and such will follow shortly or in the morning.

[RefSteel]

Thanks for the terrific update! I'll look at the HV situation and try to suggest something later on this weekend. However, I still need to know: How many hammers are in the Monastery? Does the Pike still have a hammer invested? Do you remember when we put the hammer into it?

Some quick thoughts:

I wouldn't build any more culture in Red Dwarf unless it's part of a specific plan (e.g. timing for a granary double chop) - it has good enough first-ring tiles to just work the fp and wait for a religion border pop. I see that it doesn't have Hinduism yet, but we definitely want a missionary to get there by the time we chop something, for the +25% OR bonus.

Yes, I agree, we definitely need more workers.

Working grass forests at Kilrah is fine until we can get more improved tiles. If it finds itself working worse tiles than that though, don't be afraid to whip something. Plains hill mines there are a good idea, but I'd happily save a worker turn by assigning just one worker to it even though it delays the mine - the other worker can work on another mine at the same time or start on a farm.

[RefSteel]

I should NOT be doing this at this hour of the night. (sigh....)

Sankore at HV: No dice. I apologize for saying it might work (a few days ago) before thinking it through; I didn't have a clear enough idea of what turn it was, what tile improvements the city had, what had and hadn't already been built there, etc. We could have managed it if we started planning for it several turns ago, but it isn't possible from a flat-footed start here and now. In my defense, I realized this the same day I first posted about it, and posted that the cap would be better when I realized it. I've now checked in detail though (which was a waste of time, but whatever) and it's not close - not REMOTELY close - given the present state of those two cities. U Sankore will be built at Fierias or nowhere.

(HV's next build should probably be a Grocer, and it should probably be 3-pop whipped after a single turn of production; the overflow should finish the monastery.)

Okay, so, Fierias: When building a settler or worker, it is MORE important that Fierias work hammer tiles than when it's building anything else! When building anything that doesn't eat food, choosing food over hammers is often justified for growth. When building a settler, ESPECIALLY at a Bureau capital, you should try to work as near to zero net food as possible while still working good (improved) tiles! Not only is food-turned-into-hammers less valuable than food-as-food, food used for worker/settlers gets neither the forge bonus nor the bureau bonus .... and the overflow gets "unmultiplied" as though it had gotten both! As a rule, Fierias should ALWAYS work all five mines when building a settler or worker.

I don't know how much food Fierias has in the box, nor how many hammers it has invested in the settler (I assume no hammers in anything else), so I can't make a specific plan for the city, but it should be able to build U Sankore way, way, way sooner than HV. It doesn't have to whip a zillion pop away either; just manage overflow a bit, with or without the whip.

I'd say Temminck's next three builds (after the worker) should be a Hindu Temple, a Grocer, and a University. The order depends on how soon we'll have workers improving tiles for it (or for PR/FS that allow it to take tiles they're working). It shouldn't build military except in case of desperation. (Nor workers or settlers for that matter, but we ARE desperate for workers! Temminck working an unimproved Plains tile? FS on an unimproved Plains hill?! I realize both were for a one-time special case, but it's still ridiculous.)

I agree re: FS's next build. One general suggestion from looking over the update though: If something doesn't work out quite the way it's planned (like the 1-turn work at FS) it's not vital that it be made to work the way we thought it would in the first place. If we deal with the new situation AS a new situation, without getting too invested in the original plan, we may find we like the result.

[Maniac Marshall]

No more staying up that late at night... I'm the only one allowed to do that for this game now You got us off to a great start, you've earned your sleep. Now, in response...

Actually, I doubt we could have done it at all at HV then. I simply don't think there has been time enough since the city's founding. We'll build it at Fierias.

FWIW I had provisionally set HV to a grocer to be triple whipped next turn so we're on the same page there.

Regarding Fierias, you probably couldn't tell from my posts, but it's been working as many hammers as reasonably possible until last turn, where it gave hammers to FS to build a worker in 1 turn, and this turn, to get the temple to the optimal 22 hammers, so it can double whip and overflow into a worker.

While I considered loaning that hill back to PR, I never did so. Wasn't ever worth the cost of lost hammers, nor efficient micro wise. Was more of a continual sadness that PR has never worked out like I hoped. It's the only city that's dissappointed me really.

I know you weren't accusing me of , but I do realize that hammers are preferred to food because of the multiplier. Trust me, I play around with tile configurations a lot. For referrence, this turn it's making 3 + 33. If I max configured it, taking the hill back, it would make 2 +38. Yes, that's 4 hammers "lost", but I think it was worth it to get the worker done last turn, that's 10 food not spent not growing at FS, and to get the temple to maximum overflow in two turns. That's, again, food not lost to FS because it's getting the worker done in 1, not 2 turns. If we want to get really technical, the 10 food is ~ 1/2 of a pop in that city with a grainery. Whipped, a pop is 37 hammers, half of 37 hammers is 18 hammers. 18 hammers minus 4 hammers at the cap is 14 hammers, minus the 10 food that would have been hammers if building a worker is 4 hammers... OK, it's probably a wash.

I guess what I'm saying is that while it's always correct to do as you suggested in a vaccuum, the decisions I made were special circumstance ones, based largely on the fact that we built our cities with lots of overlap. While overlap can be bad eventually, in the short run, it's good and allows you to be flexible. I've been trying my best to take advantage of that by keeping our cities growing as much as possible, and remembering that food + whip = hammers too =)

I hope that makes sense, because, if it doesnt, then I've been horribly mismanaging things and will continue to do so unless my thought process is refuted.

RE: Temminck, we're probably on the same page there, though I wouldn't mind building a single pike there if it works out.

RE: FS I think it's plan is to build the exact same stuff as Temminck, though it should probably slip in a barracks. Never know when it might be needed.

RE: Red Dwarf it is building culture for 3 turns till the FP farm is ready, then switching to a grainery and working the farm. Red Dwarf was just founded last turn (the turn the picture was taken), and no, it doesn't have a religion... yet. It'll have one before the grainery is chopped though, so no worries.

I'll get the graphs up later today.

[RefSteel]

Actually, I doubt we could have done it at all at HV then.

We could have, but we'd probably have had to start before we put any hammers into the monastery or temple. And the capital is still better; it can make more hammers without overflow than HV can make WITH overflow (once you figure in the need to spend turn[s] putting hammers into the whippable things).

FWIW I had provisionally set HV to a grocer to be triple whipped next turn so we're on the same page there.

Cool - but I had another brainstorm; see following post.

Regarding Fierias, you probably couldn't tell from my posts, but it's been working as many hammers as reasonably possible until last turn, where it gave hammers to FS to build a worker in 1 turn, and this turn, to get the temple to the optimal 22 hammers, so it can double whip and overflow into a worker.

[EDIT: Okay, I see - you mean you're putting the 22 hammers into a temple at *FS*. 22 hammers is NOT optimal unless you need some very specific number of overflow hammers. I'm 90% sure it's better to give the mine back to Fierias. Also, see next post.[/EDIT]

While I considered loaning that hill back to PR, I never did so. Wasn't ever worth the cost of lost hammers, nor efficient micro wise. Was more of a continual sadness that PR has never worked out like I hoped. It's the only city that's dissappointed me really.

High expectations, I think. It was great early on, and it'll be great again - we won't be in Bureau forever, for instance.

I guess what I'm saying is that while it's always correct to do as you suggested in a vaccuum, the decisions I made were special circumstance ones

Yeah - those decisions were fine. I made the comment about settlers because I misunderstood what you wrote - I thought you implied that it was okay to borrow the hill *because* Fierias was building a settler, which of course isn't what you meant.

[RefSteel]

By T140, with one double whip (for the University on T133) Fierias should be able to build its present settler-for-Smithsonian, its missionary-for-Smithsonian, a Hindu Temple, a University (normal variety), and another University (Sankore variety). This turn, its tiles worked would include all five grass hill mines and the plains farm. No, it wouldn't build that third settler, but...

HV can build a one-turn Settler to complete T132, acquiring a Monastery, Courthouse, and Grocer in the meantime. This turn, it would still build a Grocer, but would hire an Engineer and a Priest.

In order to provide detailed plans, I need to know:

- How many hammers are in the Settler at Fierias?

- How many hammers are in the Monastery at HV?

- How much food is in the box at Fierias?

- How much food is in the box at HV?

(Or we can go with a different plan - I like this one, but that's me.)

[Maniac Marshall]

Actually, what I meant was 33 hammers, not 22. I dono how I typo'd that twice. There's actually another way to do it that I see now, it'll just take longer.

Hopefully there is still time to do your plan. I'll post that stuff shortly. I've been sleeping all afternoon from exhaustion. I think I already know what you're doing at Fierias, I was doing something similar, but not exactly the same, as I was building missionaries rather than the temple. I'd already decided to build the 3rd settler at HV, though I hadn't come up with a 1 turn settler idea. I was just going to tipple whip it.

FWIW, I can't get a missionary into Red Dwarf in time for the chop for the grainery then, I have nowhere to build him, and he needed to be complete in 2 turns. Actually, I COULD build him in Kilrah I guess, but I'd have to start this turn and whip him next. I'd rather not whip Kilrah, but will if I have to.

72 hammers in the settler

36 hammers in the monastery

32/44 Fierias

30/40 HV

Let me know what you want me to do.

EDIT: Actually going to 0 growth for 2 turns I can squeeze 20 hammers out of Kilrah, so it's a 2 turn missionary and gets there in time. As a side benefit, Red Dwarf can borrow the Rice for those 2 turns.

MORE EDIT: OK, I can get the missionary done in time without having to loan the rice. I forgot I had an extra turn because Kilrah is one move not to to RD

[Maniac Marshall]

Looks like we're not going to be active at the same time today unfortunately. In any case, I've configured the 2 cities the way you suggested, so hopefully you can come up with a plan for them.

At Fierias, there will be another plains farm available in 2 turns. (I can make it finish NEXT turn if you need me to)

At HV, the last of the southern FP's will be farmed up in 3 turns (unfortunately i misclicked on a worker order a few turns back or it would be 2) Again, if necessary, I can probably get it done a turn earlier.

[RefSteel]

First, I missed replying to this:

No more staying up that late at night... I'm the only one allowed to do that for this game now You got us off to a great start...

Thanks - but that's *we* got us off to a great start! And hopefully we'll have a great midgame too, with Morgan over whatever it is and playing a major role in that "we." In the meantime....

Actually, what I meant was 33 hammers, not 22. I dono how I typo'd that twice. There's actually another way to do it that I see now, it'll just take longer.

Ah - that makes sense then.

Hopefully there is still time to do your plan.

Should be. I'll look at it shortly, and post a specific plan if I can.

MORE EDIT: OK, I can get the missionary done in time without having to loan the rice. I forgot I had an extra turn because Kilrah is one move not to to RD

Terrific!

Looks like we're not going to be active at the same time today unfortunately. In any case, I've configured the 2 cities the way you suggested, so hopefully you can come up with a plan for them.

Cool; thanks.

At Fierias, there will be another plains farm available in 2 turns. (I can make it finish NEXT turn if you need me to)

Need is too strong a word, but it would probably be most helpful next turn. Don't hurt another city's development for it though; I don't THINK it's needed. More when I create a specific plan.

At HV, the last of the southern FP's will be farmed up in 3 turns (unfortunately i misclicked on a worker order a few turns back or it would be 2) Again, if necessary, I can probably get it done a turn earlier.

I'll keep that in mind, but HV's food levels are insane. It'll probably be working all its floodplains for several turns to come, so sooner is better, but not at the expense of more critical stuff. (Examples of other priorities: Temminck and FS really, really want the jungles in their BFCs turned into cottages. I realize that it's going to take forever though....)

[Maniac Marshall]

Clearing that jungle at Temminck is on the short list, just after finishing it's plains farm (nearly done and needed in a couple turns) and before a windmill on one of the desert hills.

Feng Shui actually has cottages it hasn't been working the last couple of turns for one reason or another (one it has yet to work at all in fact), and actually, getting it a mined hill so it can make some hammers when needed is more of a priority imo (I could be convinced, I'm just going on imperical evidence for how it's gone so far). It's already using the plains farm because (7+9+9+9 = 34) it facilitates an optimal double whip of a temple. Don't get me wrong, I DO want to get that done as well, just after we mine the grass hill, because it still isn't working max cottages.

Should we consider building a jewish monastery in PR? What about a bhuddist one in FS? Not sure how much longer we're going to be in OR, so it occurs we might want someplace we can make missionaries later on.

BTW: I inadvertantly ended turn earlier. It's unlikely India ends turn before morning however.