[PB59] Lazteuq worries for the endangered lurker species

[vanrober]

Sorry i didnt say anything of t129.

Launched GA and put the merchants as you wanted, but not much else.

Its blue marble, exactly. I cant play civ without it xD. Im glad i didnt fail with assumptions, i was a bit scared!

[Lazteuq]

Turn 131: Golden age is going nicely, 6 turns left. I decided it's time to stop saving gold, so I'll get Iron Working and Archery finally, and then probably Feudalism-Guilds.
Here's the moai GA screenshot we all love:

I don't have a clear direction for this game, and I think any chance of winning is long gone. There are people out there with twice my land area. I think the only way you win a game like this is with early conquest to start building a huge land snowball. So the goal now is simply to keep doing reasonably well and have fun. I should manage to last until the end and have a major impact on the game. I expect this game will die before it reaches a good conclusion though. I'm certainly not fatigued yet, but I'm sure people who have been fighting for most of the last 100 turns are.

I think I'll run along the bottom of the tech tree, avoiding Civil Service to allow Chemistry and/or Astro bulbs. Privateers, Cannons, Grenadiers, Frigates. That sort of thing. I want to do stuff with boats. In all my pitboss games so far I haven't been able to do any serious naval stuff.
I still see little reason to research Calendar, Alphabet, or the Aesthetics line. Eventually I'll want HBR, Engineering and Compass->Optics but there's no rush.

I've built a lot of watermills and lumbermills. Next I'll be converting some mines to windmills. I have #2 production in the world right now!

GKC scares me still. He's made peace with Ramk and for all I know there could be a 15+ keshiks preparing to attack me. Soon I'll be producing a lot of cheap units like spears and cats in these cities with new forges, but I fear it might be too late. I haven't actually built a single catapult yet, although I put hammers into a couple. I'm assuming GKC encountered too much resistance with Ramk and he's aware I'm peacefully elapsing him in development as he fights with old units, so he surely will want to knock me down before long. I don't really know how well he's doing in tech.

[vanrober]

I thought your plan was going to CoL to get another civic and run more specialist. It seems it doesnt, so i wanted to ask if you have already think that (i guess you did) and why did you think its not a good plan.

Also it allows to get Civil service for another trait and put some farms as you have some signs...

Just asking, im not sure what is correct or not, but since you are playing SPI, i wanna know your thoughs for my next PB

[Lazteuq]

That's a really good question. It's a difficult decision, I think CoL is a reasonable choice but I'm choosing a different path.

Caste is definitely really nice, but I don't think researching CoL is worth it. First, caste would cost about 10-15 more gpt since it's Medium instead of Low upkeep. More importantly, Serfdom is giving me about 20 base commerce from farms, and about 10 base hammers from watermills. I feel like the extra specialist power from Caste wouldn't be worth losing all that. It would definitely help get the second golden age sooner, but I'm not convinced. I think golden ages are the main reason I would want caste, since I don't have much need for merchants and artists otherwise. I guess bulbing Guilds would have been an option if I planned ahead a lot more. If I was Organized (like you picked in 61!) I would like CoL for courthouses also, but I don't think courthouses are worth it for me at full price. Maybe after the second GA I will finally use caste to quickly generate a artist and merchant for the third GA. At that point CoL will be very cheap.
Also if I build a lot of workshops Caste will be better, but right now I have exactly 0 workshops. That's mostly because I left the forests alone on non-river tiles so I could make lumbermills.

One problem with civil service is that it will cause a scientist to bulb Paper and other things down that part of the tech tree. If I want to bulb Astro or Chemistry early I have to avoid that. Also civil service is pretty expensive and I think macemen aren't very important if I can pretty easily get knights instead. Bureaucracy is good but I don't care that much. My capitol isn't a very special city, and the upkeep cost of bureaucracy would definitely hurt. I think the ability to spread irrigation of farms would only give about 6 extra food in my entire empire, so I can safely ignore it. Th

Whenever I want to build lots of units, I'll take advantage of SPI to switch to Slavery+Vasslage+Paganism, but so far I haven't been in enough danger to do that. I would say Theocracy but I don't think it's worth researching Theology just for that.

I think I've played SPI pretty badly this game, mostly because I committed so much to Serfdom. Charriu's changes to Serfdom seduced me too well. I actually haven't swapped civics enough times to get much benefit. I think I mostly wasted SPI and I would have been better with other traits like FIN or ORG or even PHI! Maybe I'm too much of a casual player to really use SPI because it requires a lot of planning ahead.

[vanrober]

I think I've played SPI pretty badly this game, mostly because I committed so much to Serfdom. Charriu's changes to Serfdom seduced me too well. I actually haven't swapped civics enough times to get much benefit. I think I mostly wasted SPI and I would have been better with other traits like FIN or ORG or even PHI! Maybe I'm too much of a casual player to really use SPI because it requires a lot of planning ahead.

I have completely this fear for my game. but it was nice to read your thoughts! thanks bro

[Lazteuq]

Turn 134: 3 turns remain in the First Persian Golden Age. Guilds is also done in 3 turns. I won't be able to make Knights in 3 turns though because I don't have HBR or Archery. After taking care of those, I don't have a plan yet.
I want to get galleons and privateers early and do some coastal raiding for fun and profit. I'm pretty sure I can have them before anyone else on my home continent, so my navy will be free to cause havoc. Capturing major cities can give 100-200 gold easily, so I think I could actually fuel a sort of pirate pillage economy by capturing underdefended coastal cities with amphibious macemen or something. I am Aggressive, so Barracks+Vasslage alone is enough to get Amphibious. I don't need any Great Generals or Theocracy. Or I could just use Knights. Paper for Galleons needs Civil Service anyway though.

Hmm, here's a possible plan:

• Finish Guilds, clean up HBR and Archery. Can build Knights
  
• Get CoL and run tons of Caste specialists for a Merchant, Artist and a couple more scientists ASAP. I have several overgrown cities like Bottlenose working lots of coast tiles which I will happily starve down.
  
• Research Compass, Optics, and Alphabet the normal way.
  
• Bulb Astronomy. Maybe 2 bulbs, or maybe 1 bulb+normal research.
  
• Research Gunpowder. Can now build Privateers.
  
• Research Engineering. Nobody I know has teched Engineering yet, I'd like to wait for some KTB.
  
• Bulb Chemistry.
  
• Research Civil Service-Paper. Can now build Galleons (And Amphibious Macemen perhaps?)
  
• Start another golden age at some point.
  

I do have a Great Scientist already stored up waiting to do something. So I would only need 1-2 more minimum. Quite a few cities have partially full GP pools already.

Right now most cities are still building OR-boosted infrastructure, but a few are building catapults in case GKC is planning something. I doubt it though, because I think his power would be increasing more if he was seriously preparing an attack. He did just adopt Vasslage though... I offered him OB and fish for fish, but I'm not very optimistic.

I traded maps with mackoti (or whatever he wants to be called...) and now I have full coverage vertically and horizontally, so I think I'll get the circumnavigation bonus next turn.

[Lazteuq]

Turn 136: It's the last turn of the golden age, so here are probably the best demos I'll ever see:

GKC is roading our border, I'm getting worried that he may have Engineering. That would allow him to hit Steller out of the fog. I put 5 spears in there to hopefully deter him. I've also got a catapult stack hiding, and I'm rapidly building more catapults. In 3 more turns I'll start building Knights.

I was wrong earlier, I haven't circumnavigated yet. There's a little bit of ocean to Mjmd's west that I need to cross somehow. I offered Charriu open borders but he declined. I guess I either have to get another map trade, or go the long way around. And of course I'll need Optics.

I realized that researching CoL opens up the Philosophy bulb, which happens before Chemistry, so I'll have to be careful about that.

[Lazteuq]

I never expected this:

GKC is at war with Ramk again, and Charriu switched to Slavery. My threat priorities have suddenly changed. I started moving units south toward the Charriu border. Also I'm going to chop the jungles between us.
I'm up to 8 or so catapults now, but I have a real shortage of hitting units that aren't spearmen. I want to get at least one knight on the Charriu border soon just as a show of force.

I decided that Caste+Pacifism is worth going for, so I'm researching CoL and then Philosophy. The plan is to first generate a merchant, then start the second GA, and continue making mostly scientists. I'm not sure if I should keep running Caste during the GA or go back to Serfdom. Also I'm not sure if I should try to make enough GP for a third GA. Will the game even last that long?

Most cities are just building wealth right now, so I swapped from OR to Paganism. In 5 more turns I'll swap into Pacifism+Caste and absolutely starve some cities that are currently working crap tiles like coast.

[Lazteuq]

Thinking about the bigger picture, it's really surprising that I've been able to just exist relatively peacefully. I don't know if that's because of my early aggression or in spite of it. Charriu and GKC both made half-hearted attempts earlier at counterattacking me and then stopped. I don't know why. I'd like to think it's because I made myself a prickly enough target, but I think a lot of it comes down to pure luck. I think I've played a pretty mediocre, uninspiring game and I only am doing well in comparison to my neighbors because they all struggled with more difficult situations than me. On any other continent, I probably would be struggling a lot more.

At this point I think I'm the only one on my continent with a "good" situation. GKC, Ramk, and Mjmd have all beaten the crap out of eachother for little gain. For a while GKC seemed to be still economically competing but now I think he's invested too much into apparently fruitless wars with Ramk. Charriu hasn't been involved in as much brutal war, but is definitely lagging behind me. Check out these graphs: (only the people on my continent are shown)

And demos:

Next turn I swap to Caste and Pacifism. I'll have Circumnavigation in 3 turns and then push for some actual military to capitalize on my economic lead.

[Lazteuq]

Quick update, it's turn 145. PB60 is about to catch up!
I've been running Caste+Pacifism and generating an absurd amount of Great Person Points lately. Just got a Merchant out of Bowhead and will get something out of the capitol next turn. Also I've been running a lot of artists on borders.

@Vanrober, In my posts from a few weeks ago I underestimated the power of Caste System. I was comparing it to the extra hammers and commerce from Serfdom, but I didn't realize something important: Running specialists means I've been leaving a lot of windmills, farms, and watermills unworked, so Serfdom wouldn't be helping those tiles as much as I thought. Also the upkeep cost wasn't quite as bad as I expected.

I finally got circumnavigation and the economy boost was pretty fantastic.
I think I want to try the amphibious knights on galleons I've talked about before. Obviously Charriu and GKC can be good targets, but maybe Donovan (TBS) as well. I might be able to break up the apparent stalemate on that continent, but do I want to? I did cooperate with Commodore earlier and I'd still like to help him and Superdeath. Maybe that continent is just cursed by eternal war without resolution? Donovan's GNP is really bad so I assume he's still a long way from Astro.

Charriu adopted some militaristic civics and his power is increasing. The target might be Mjmd, or maybe he's just being defensive. In any case, I've swapped off wealth builds to knights and cats. I'm going to fill up the build queues and complete them when I swap to Theocracy so they get 2 promotions. Hopefully Charriu will see my power increase and be deterred.

Edit: I cancelled OB with Civac because he appears to be one of the leaders.
Also I just got a really devious idea: I could accept OB with Donovan(TBS) and then attack just a few turns later when he hopefully lets his guard down. I wish I knew what kind of defenses he had on the coasts. Commodore has taken a couple coastal cities temporarily, so I assume he's going to be pretty vigilant. It's honestly probably better to just attack people on my own continent.