[SPOILERS] Margarita and the Lurkers

[Maga_R]

You have a lot of nice discussions here. One thing I wanted to say was: I consider EXP and India to be antisynergistic. Why?

There are two good ways to build granaries.
1) EXP.
2) Chopping.

You really want one of these in order to get new cities productive quickly. Well, a big benefit of India is it's really good at chopping, especially in new cities. So a large part of the benefit of EXP is redundant with it.

That's not to say I would complain about being India and EXP; both are top tier.

That is an interesting way of looking at it and I guess you are right, EXP and Fast Workers are a bit redundant . And it is also rather reassuring to think about it that way - I am very optimistic normally, but not crazy enough to think I would land Pacal of India :D.

BTW, with 10th team just signing up now, I am not even sure anymore I can be guaranteed a non-junk FIN leader ...

So things are getting more challenging ... and more interesting . I may get good excuse to go with Mehmed .

[Maga_R]

I guess your point is that without fast workers, other ways of quickbuilding granaries may gain strength

@Nicolae: Yeah, I think it is almost a philosophical question here without an easy answer: whether it is better to invest in one area and go to the limits there or spread your strengths more evenly? I was actually tempted a bit to try to go with the extreme approach and was asking if CRE Inca is indeed so bad? On the other hand, spreading your strength sounds much safer and should give more flexibility.

[Maga_R]

You have a lot of nice discussions here.

Thank you, Seven . As you may have noticed, I digged up earlier your ranking system - which turned out to be for a different situation (blush).

But perhaps you could be persuaded to quantify your opinions on desirability of different leaders and civs in our situation: 10 teams, educational game (I understand room to grow), everybody starts with scouts, Plako's choice of a map and difficulty between Emperor and Monarch.

[SevenSpirits]

But perhaps you could be persuaded to quantify your opinions on desirability of different leaders and civs in our situation: 10 teams, educational game (I understand room to grow), everybody starts with scouts, Plako's choice of a map and difficulty between Emperor and Monarch.

I am hesitant to provide my opinions for this situation in particular since I will be helping with the map. But I can tell you the most recent trait ratings I had. This was for a map where courthouses and lighthouses would both be good buildings.

FIN 10
EXP 9.5
CRE 8.5
ORG 8
SPI 7.5
IND 6.5
PHI 5
IMP 4.5
CHA 4
AGG 2
PRO 0

For starting techs, agriculture, wheel, and mining are the good ones, and the others are bad. Two good techs is worth about 1-2 points more than two bad techs. Strong UU and/or UB is worth maybe 1. Inca 3, India 3.5 (4 on quick).

But this is just my opinion, as best as I've managed to put it into numbers. So take it with a grain of salt.

[Maga_R]

But perhaps you could be persuaded to quantify your opinions on desirability of different leaders and civs in our situation: 10 teams, educational game (I understand room to grow), everybody starts with scouts, Plako's choice of a map and difficulty between Emperor and Monarch.

I am hesitant to provide my opinions for this situation in particular since I will be helping with the map. But I can tell you the most recent trait ratings I had. This was for a map where courthouses and lighthouses would both be good buildings.

FIN 10
EXP 9.5
CRE 8.5
ORG 8
SPI 7.5
IND 6.5
PHI 5
IMP 4.5
CHA 4
AGG 2
PRO 0

For starting techs, agriculture, wheel, and mining are the good ones, and the others are bad. Two good techs is worth about 1-2 points more than two bad techs. Strong UU and/or UB is worth maybe 1. Inca 3, India 3.5 (4 on quick).

But this is just my opinion, as best as I've managed to put it into numbers. So take it with a grain of salt.

Thanks a lot, Seven, will ponder that . Since you have not started to work on the map yet, I hoped it was still OK to ask .

The first think that I see is that your ranking indicates that FIN is not necessary a way to go. E.g. Sury (EXP/CRE) would be ranked 3rd or 4th here, and Mehmed (Exp/Org) would be 5th or 6th.

[SevenSpirits]

Yeah, it's not an issue but I just want to be on the safe side.

[Maga_R]

Alright, so we pick 3rd.

Good picking position, should be happy about it as it allows me to get basically whatever I want - except I still cannot decide what I want . Is India or Inca worth picking first? Or should I simply pick Pacal, if only available?

Teams picking before us are relatively unknown, so they are probably more likely than others to go with some unorthodox choice, so both India and even Pacal are likely to be available at 3rd picking position. Any thoughts?

[Maga_R]

So according to SevenSpirits rough scoring - and with crude and likely to be false assumption that trait scores are additive - here are top leaders

FIN EXP 19.5 Pacal
FIN CRE 18.5 Willem
FIN ORG 18 Darius
EXP CRE 18 Sury
FIN SPI 17.5 Mansa
EXP ORG 17.5 Mehmed
EXP SPI 17 Izzy
FIN IND 16.5 HC
CRE ORG 16.5 Zara Yaqob
EXP IND 16 Bismarck
CRE SPI 16 Hatty
ORG SPI 15.5 Asoka
FIN PHI 15 Lizzy
CRE IND 15 Louis

Moreover, since India is ranked only 3.5 - and any civ with good starting techs or strong UU or UB would be at least 1, it means that the difference between having first or last civ option would be at most 2.5. OTOH difference between Pacal (1st) and Bismarck/Hatty (10th) - is 3.5, which indicates that leaders should be chosen first, which is what most people do anyway. Moreover, since we get to see the starting position before snake pick, there should be more good picks for a civ, another argument to go with a leader pick first.

Would you agree, SevenSpirits?

[Merovech]

You have a lot of nice discussions here. One thing I wanted to say was: I consider EXP and India to be antisynergistic. Why?

There are two good ways to build granaries.
1) EXP.
2) Chopping.

You really want one of these in order to get new cities productive quickly. Well, a big benefit of India is it's really good at chopping, especially in new cities. So a large part of the benefit of EXP is redundant with it.

That's not to say I would complain about being India and EXP; both are top tier.

Doesn't the ability to 1.5-chop a granary make up for that? Mainly, I'm confused as to why you consider chopping into a granary to be less useful when expansive. I think I remember you once agreeing with the argument that ORG Sumeria/Aztec is not antisynergistic, where compared to ORG without a cheap courthouse UU, the hammers saved are less, but the overall cost of the courthouse is still lower, and I think that I see parallels here, just with time saved instead of hammers saved.

[Maga_R]

You have a lot of nice discussions here. One thing I wanted to say was: I consider EXP and India to be antisynergistic. Why?

There are two good ways to build granaries.
1) EXP.
2) Chopping.

You really want one of these in order to get new cities productive quickly. Well, a big benefit of India is it's really good at chopping, especially in new cities. So a large part of the benefit of EXP is redundant with it.

That's not to say I would complain about being India and EXP; both are top tier.

Doesn't the ability to 1.5-chop a granary make up for that? Mainly, I'm confused as to why you consider chopping into a granary to be less useful when expansive. I think I remember you once agreeing with the argument that ORG Sumeria/Aztec is not antisynergistic, where compared to ORG without a cheap courthouse UU, the hammers saved are less, but the overall cost of the courthouse is still lower, and I think that I see parallels here, just with time saved instead of hammers saved.

I think the problem here is "alternative opportunity cost". I mean, cheap Sumerian or Aztec courthouses are getting even cheaper with ORG, which is great. But "alternative opportunity cost" here is that instead of making already cheap buildings cheaper, you could make expensive buildings cheaper - i.e. play a CRE leader of Sumeria or Aztec.
It seems to work the same way as IND being more powerful if there is no stone or marble on the map.

So I guess the answer to your question is that with fast chopping India can expand fast anyway, so other trait could be more useful than EXP here.

Also hoping Sevens will elaborate on that.