[Spoiler] Another collection of Sianic Games

[Mardoc]

And yes, Q, you're the reason for the report with nine screenshots in lieu of the usual 2 paragraphs .

[Qgqqqqq]

Great update! I'll be sure to comment more, now

Now that you've seen them on both sides of the battlefield, how good are Javelin Throwers? When would you want to field them?

What do you think of the map - or that which you can see, anyway?

What do you think of Calabim balance as a whole - especially with regards to traits? How much are ORG/RAI being useful (asides from boosting GM), and how would you compare them to other options?

(I'm thinking of buffing GM so they all cost the price they do under Decius in v9.)

[Mardoc]

Now that you've seen them on both sides of the battlefield, how good are Javelin Throwers? When would you want to field them?

Their role is emergency defense. You never want to field them, but if you have to, they work pretty well in that role. Non-melee, so Shock won't work, not too expensive, no building requirements. I think copper warriors would work better, but they're more effective than non-copper, especially if you built your cities on hills.

Probably the most important bit about them is the no-building requirements. I kinda think that archers may be worth experimenting with as well, but that Archery Range tax makes them a tough sell.

What do you think of the map - or that which you can see, anyway?

Interesting, but there are pieces I dislike. The mountains with many barb lairs have meant I have had basically no interaction with Brian, which isn't good for a 4-player game.

I haven't felt any real reason to clear out the barb lairs in my territory. I'll probably do that when I get vamps and can do it with spectres. But that makes me wonder as to their purpose.

I do like having Ygg and some of the happy resources in contested territory

What do you think of Calabim balance as a whole - especially with regards to traits? How much are ORG/RAI being useful (asides from boosting GM), and how would you compare them to other options?

Calabim are still one of the very best civs in the game. Most of that power is in the governor's manor; it's a huge boost which comes at a good time. Moroi are a nice boost as well, as such an early fast-mover. I really like the Moroi design, though: the way Burning Blood works, you can't use it until you're about to fight. So it gives you options and reach, but not too much. And charges you a tax for using it; Moroi hardly ever fail to go barb.

Raiders is so situational and swingy. Most of the time, it's useless. And then, occasionally it can win you the game. It may have won me this one. If I wasn't Raiders, HK could have lost just the two cities on the border instead of also losing four? more to my wide-ranging raze parties - he'd still be in first place despite not building an army. But Raiders effectiveness requires your opponents to be vulnerable, and you to have a fast-mover. If HK had an army at the beginning, I would have been stopped at two cities, Raiders or no Raiders.

Org, it's hard to say. Of course it's handy for the GM's, and must be saving me a significant pile of cash at the moment. But I'm not using it to fullest extent, with no Command Posts in my empire (hmm, maybe that would be worth unlocking pre-Vamps too...). Solid trait, not sure if I'd prefer it to all other options, but it's no weakling either.

Flauros is also a good option, particularly when Org doesn't help GM anymore. I think with the new GM, I might prefer him to Decius because I don't like swingy traits.

I don't like Alex. Agg has a role if you're looking to play with Moroi, but Phi is so use-impaired with banned Elder Councils. I'd replace it with...well, there are a lot of options for replacements. Nothing too strong, but it'd be nice to have something with a purpose anyway.

(I'm thinking of buffing GM so they all cost the price they do under Decius in v9.)

I think 60h is actually a tad cheap. It's never, ever, ever, a debate whether you want one, assuming you're not currently in a life or death war. Maybe split the difference at 80 or 90h? It's a tough call, as this is such a large fraction of the Calabim value - over nerf GM's and you'll have to give them back something else in recompense.

I'm not 100% certain that would be a bad thing, though. Right now, the 'vampire' civ considers vampires to be optional Haven't thought through a complete redesign, but it might be nice to push the balance toward vampires and away from Moroi, just a bit.

[Qgqqqqq]

They're currently halfway between Decius price and normal price - 90h? Respond more in the morning. Thanks.

[Mardoc]

They're currently halfway between Decius price and normal price - 90h? Respond more in the morning. Thanks.

Then I'd leave them there at least until we see someone or several someones play them in v11.1

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah. One thing that was probably missed, and I should've mentioned, is that they also lost all of the faux-courthouse bonii. So slightly weaker than all that.

But I agree that testing is probably warranted.


Hmm. No ranges just for archers might be worth experimenting with - detracts from those that get it normally, slightly hurts higher tiers and is a bit against the theme, but might be worth it regardless.


Yeah, the map failed a bit in that, methinks - is the rail still there, though? Obviously HK settling there makes it harder.

But I kinda look at it as interaction in and of itself not mandated - the rail and other factors was more designed around making interaction possible and, moreover, making interference in a diagonally opposed runaway/leader possible. Perhaps that's the wrong approach, and I should've made sure borders arose. But beyond caving in the mountains that wouldn't fundamentally shift the map design.

Idk, maybe I underestimated the necessity of that interaction versus other factors. There are other comments I'd make, but they involve spoilers.

The forts, hmm. Iirc there's only 4 of them in the immediate quadrant, or one per player? Sure they're defended slightly more than usual, but basically the same. Maybe I should've changed the underlying territory more. But apart from that, it's just animals and a single archer.

I saw them as a way of keeping a small barb influence and feed into the area, showing the inhospitality and keeping the player honest - especially as the way the map worked out, it's relatively easy to fogbust most of it.


Yeah, Alexis is annoying. What trait, though? It's difficult to use one already covered by the others, and a lot don't fit/are already covered (EXP/SPI).

[Bobchillingworth]

Alexis has Phi for one reason- to generate prophets for bulbing the Veil and Priesthood. If you aren't interested in slipping into that particular straightjacket it's kind of useless.

[Mardoc]

Yeah. One thing that was probably missed, and I should've mentioned, is that they also lost all of the faux-courthouse bonii. So slightly weaker than all that.

But I agree that testing is probably warranted.

I guess you could argue that -20% maintenance can be worth 30 hammers occasionally, but I still think the main effect will be balanced reasonably at 90. But yeah, I could be wrong, test and see.

Hmm. No ranges just for archers might be worth experimenting with - detracts from those that get it normally, slightly hurts higher tiers and is a bit against the theme, but might be worth it regardless.

That's the frustration I have, yes. It's anti-thematic for everyone to require a building except archers. But at the same time, no one actually wants to build archers; you might be forced into it, but if you have time to plan your army, you'd rather have something else.

Possible exception: Ljo, actually. With the cheaper Archery, it might maybe be worth trying archers as an army.

Biggest risk: What does that change do to the rush civs? Doviello, Tasunke, etc? Is it even possible to kill someone before they can shut you down with archers?

Yeah, the map failed a bit in that, methinks - is the rail still there, though? Obviously HK settling there makes it harder.

But I kinda look at it as interaction in and of itself not mandated - the rail and other factors was more designed around making interaction possible and, moreover, making interference in a diagonally opposed runaway/leader possible. Perhaps that's the wrong approach, and I should've made sure borders arose. But beyond caving in the mountains that wouldn't fundamentally shift the map design.

Let's put it this way: My territory is U-shaped. The tips of the U are where I'm currently fighting; one side is Kragroth, the other is HK. The 'railed mountains' fill the inside of the U. And when I pull Moroi from one side to the other, it's faster to go south, west, north, through my territory, staying on roads, than to cross the short way where there used to be rails.

Idk, maybe I underestimated the necessity of that interaction versus other factors. There are other comments I'd make, but they involve spoilers.

Well, on the other hand, the way things turned out, everyone can interfere with me, to the extent they have an army . I don't believe Yell0w could interfere with HK when HK was the runaway, but it could be that he just didn't want to. Similarly, I'm pretty sure I didn't meet Brian until after I had already conquered a fair bit of HK.

The forts, hmm. Iirc there's only 4 of them in the immediate quadrant, or one per player? Sure they're defended slightly more than usual, but basically the same. Maybe I should've changed the underlying territory more. But apart from that, it's just animals and a single archer.

I saw them as a way of keeping a small barb influence and feed into the area, showing the inhospitality and keeping the player honest - especially as the way the map worked out, it's relatively easy to fogbust most of it.

Not talking about the forts, per se. Look at the recent shot of Forever. Notice four tiles unusable due to barbs. Notice also that both HK and I have the ability to clear those barbs for a fairly nominal cost, probably 1-2 warriorpults plus a real unit would do it. Notice that neither of us felt it was worth even that small price.

The lions on top of gold were worth the effort, but the others are just in the way. Maybe if they'd been on top of food tiles instead of hammer tiles?

Doesn't really affect balance in any real way, I just find them aesthetically displeasing . I guess the Held archers did some fogbusting.

Yeah, Alexis is annoying. What trait, though? It's difficult to use one already covered by the others, and a lot don't fit/are already covered (EXP/SPI).

Alexis has Phi for one reason- to generate prophets for bulbing the Veil and Priesthood. If you aren't interested in slipping into that particular straightjacket it's kind of useless.

Well, I mostly find it annoying because I have trouble seeing a coherent gameplan for her. Moroi rush, which attempting to bulb Veil and get Ritualists in play by the time Moroi get bogged down? Sorta kinda that, maybe?

Or else Hyborem rush, while trying to use Moroi to up the AC and gimp a neighbor or three?

But I guess I don't know what I'd change her to. And maybe someone else will see a way to make her shine; just because I don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

[Mardoc]

HK advances again. So that force of 5 Moroi is headed east again - they've really been yo-yoing.




Meanwhile, Kragroth cleaned up the Moroi on his border and piled a bunch of bodies into Brakkah. However, he had to leave a Hunter on the desert mana after the kill, and he also had another worker within eyeshot, so I used a couple bloodpets to take those opportunities.


Here's what I have; enough to hold the line, but not yet enough to advance. The five Moroi would probably have been able to break Brakkah, but I'd rather try to hold my ex-Illian cities, I think.



Fortunately, at EOT I got my first catapult finished, and I only need a few more turns to have enough of those to be decisive. I did have to pause the Siege Workshops on the border for some more bodies; HK is really making me nervous. I really need to buy five more turns somehow, that'd be enough for me to have 5-6 cats to go with my big stacks of bloodpets and Moroi - enough to really put the hurt on a stack like he's waving in my face.

Also at EOT, Trade! Nice boost to my GNP, approximately paid for the new military finished at EOT . I'm tempted to have an apocalyptic battle with HK just for economic purposes :.

I looked at the ETA on a few techs. At breakeven, Feudalism is about 12, while Sailing is 4. With HK menacing, that turned into a pretty easy choice. I'll start working on vamps next turn. About the only reason I might maybe pause would be if he makes a big mistake and allows me to wipe his stack - but even then I think I'd want vamps en route to take advantage.

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah, Trade is awesome.

By Sailing v Feudalism, do you mean that, given a lack of pressure, you'd rather expand from here than simply go for outright military dominance? How much of a gamechanger will vampires be for the current status quo?

Edit: Oh and I'd be interested in feedback on cats. They don't see much use, lately, but to my mind that's largely because of a) the trend of military dominance by economic superpowers leading to a favor of later-game options, b) the swing towards chariots (which outpace cats) as the mid-game attack dog of choice - which is likely to change with recent versions and has yet to be corrected/adjusted for by players - and c) a general lack of experience/trend away from them for other options because of non-rational considerations - the sacrificial nature of their collateral, and the experience of playing in single-player.

Otoh, concerns of lack of speed do hold, so I am interested in your view - especially as the player with perhaps the most cross-culture experience in BTS/EitB MP, which each hold very different views on the place of what is, ultimately, pretty well the same unit.