[No Players] Casual Commentary: 28 Lurkers Later

[GermanJoey]

I absolutely agree with that. I mean, the 1NE spot is even more in the middle of the continent and blocks out Mardoc's spot over there utterly, so I certainly don't think of 1NE as any less of an aggressive plant...

So what you're saying is that you'd want to get 3rd ring borders fast enough that you'd try to steal the pig via 3rd ring borders at the 1N spot and then with another spot 2S1W (or even 1S1W, given Mardoc's troubles with Jowy) of the pig? That's not a bad idea... that does give up the fish, but perhaps that fish is a lost cause anyways. At some point you'd want to plan your west coast around making sure you can fort Galleons into the center of the continent... I would be surprised if an entire continent falls pre-Ren era given that 3-way checks and balance should prevent one player from getting far ahead unhindered.

[Krill]

I absolutely agree with that. I mean, the 1NE spot is even more in the middle of the continent and blocks out Mardoc's spot over there utterly, so I certainly don't think of 1NE as any less of an aggressive plant...

So what you're saying is that you'd want to get 3rd ring borders fast enough that you'd try to steal the pig via 3rd ring borders at the 1N spot

Essentially this.

and then with another spot 2S1W (or even 1S1W, given Mardoc's troubles with Jowy) of the pig? That's not a bad idea... that does give up the fish, but perhaps that fish is a lost cause anyways. At some point you'd want to plan your west coast around making sure you can fort Galleons into the center of the continent... I would be surprised if an entire continent falls pre-Ren era given that 3-way checks and balance should prevent one player from getting far ahead unhindered.

Basically at this point it's building whatever strategy works totals over the continent. Building an economy that gets you the army to grab an entire continents basically the simplest strategy that exists. You have to tech there and the individual tiles are food poor, with a cottage cheese approach probably not working. Wide city spacing from henge, few happy res pro/exp to help with higher pop cities and early game growth to get there seems nigh on perfect. Mass windmills, serfdom and vassalage wit PRO longbows to abse those hills would break Jowy and Mardoc after they spend 20 turns fucking about.

[GermanJoey]

It's all kind of moot. Misplays (Mardoc's copper miss and Jowy's Jowitude) plus being PROTECTIVE CHINA on this map mean that Fenn is going to romp.

How experienced is Fenn though? Is this his first PB?

I wonder if Jowy can see Mardoc's backlines copper. If he can see that Mardoc has no strat resources hooked, I don't think that choking him a bit is a bad play at all. It's unlikely that the 3 island neighbors were ever going to be friends, given their situation.

[Commodore]

and then with another spot 2S1W (or even 1S1W, given Mardoc's troubles with Jowy) of the pig? That's not a bad idea... that does give up the fish, but perhaps that fish is a lost cause anyways. At some point you'd want to plan your west coast around making sure you can fort Galleons into the center of the continent... I would be surprised if an entire continent falls pre-Ren era given that 3-way checks and balance should prevent one player from getting far ahead unhindered.

Basically at this point it's building whatever strategy works totals over the continent. Building an economy that gets you the army to grab an entire continents basically the simplest strategy that exists. You have to tech there and the individual tiles are food poor, with a cottage cheese approach probably not working. Wide city spacing from henge, few happy res pro/exp to help with higher pop cities and early game growth to get there seems nigh on perfect. Mass windmills, serfdom and vassalage wit PRO longbows to abse those hills would break Jowy and Mardoc after they spend 20 turns fucking about.

Pro Chucklenaughts, actually.

[Krill]

Fenn has some PBEM experiences and isn't a moron. It would not surprise me if this were his break out game. He has enough stuff going for him that it'ds perfectly possible for it to happen but at the same time shit can go wrong and it's out of his hands.

[GermanJoey]

I absolutely agree with that. I mean, the 1NE spot is even more in the middle of the continent and blocks out Mardoc's spot over there utterly, so I certainly don't think of 1NE as any less of an aggressive plant...

So what you're saying is that you'd want to get 3rd ring borders fast enough that you'd try to steal the pig via 3rd ring borders at the 1N spot

Essentially this.

and then with another spot 2S1W (or even 1S1W, given Mardoc's troubles with Jowy) of the pig? That's not a bad idea... that does give up the fish, but perhaps that fish is a lost cause anyways. At some point you'd want to plan your west coast around making sure you can fort Galleons into the center of the continent... I would be surprised if an entire continent falls pre-Ren era given that 3-way checks and balance should prevent one player from getting far ahead unhindered.

Basically at this point it's building whatever strategy works totals over the continent. Building an economy that gets you the army to grab an entire continents basically the simplest strategy that exists. You have to tech there and the individual tiles are food poor, with a cottage cheese approach probably not working. Wide city spacing from henge, few happy res pro/exp to help with higher pop cities and early game growth to get there seems nigh on perfect. Mass windmills, serfdom and vassalage wit PRO longbows to abse those hills would break Jowy and Mardoc after they spend 20 turns fucking about.

Mass windmills + Vassalage + Serfdom is absolutely the way to go on this map. The thing is, I can't see a pre-ren-era war being successful here. Almost every city is on hills and there's shitloads of hills everywhere, which means Knights won't be very effective - you'll need a 1-mover army with tons of seige. It can be possible to do that with eng-era tech (elphants/cats/trebs/xbows/etc) but then you have to worry about the third guy... either he waits for you to have a big clash and then sweeps in to take just as much land with half the effort, or he stabs you in the back.

I agree that cottage spam won't work here, but isn't windmill spam just as good economically, at least in the classical/medieval era? e.g. compare a 2/3 grassland village vs a 2/2/1 grassland hill windmill - the village gets better benefit from a library (although a city with a library+forge is identical for either tile), but the windmill comes online instantly (without needing to work a shit tile for 30 turns beforehand) and is more flexible (e.g. you can use the 2 hammers as hammers or even work a different tile, guilt-free).

[Krill]

Didn't even know he is China but I'd not rush Machinery IMO. fued maybe, but definitely want maths and Calendar prior to Machinery. Happy to abuse wider spacing of cities is needed, HR can do that as wines and HR is 2 happy. The silk and furs resources benefit from EXP markets, so Currency is worth 2 happy and continued horizontal expansion. MC doesn't mean much unless he oracles MC and he isn't IND. I don't think you can even pland for Oracle.MC given Fenns position.

[Krill]

I absolutely agree with that. I mean, the 1NE spot is even more in the middle of the continent and blocks out Mardoc's spot over there utterly, so I certainly don't think of 1NE as any less of an aggressive plant...

So what you're saying is that you'd want to get 3rd ring borders fast enough that you'd try to steal the pig via 3rd ring borders at the 1N spot

Essentially this.

and then with another spot 2S1W (or even 1S1W, given Mardoc's troubles with Jowy) of the pig? That's not a bad idea... that does give up the fish, but perhaps that fish is a lost cause anyways. At some point you'd want to plan your west coast around making sure you can fort Galleons into the center of the continent... I would be surprised if an entire continent falls pre-Ren era given that 3-way checks and balance should prevent one player from getting far ahead unhindered.

Basically at this point it's building whatever strategy works totals over the continent. Building an economy that gets you the army to grab an entire continents basically the simplest strategy that exists. You have to tech there and the individual tiles are food poor, with a cottage cheese approach probably not working. Wide city spacing from henge, few happy res pro/exp to help with higher pop cities and early game growth to get there seems nigh on perfect. Mass windmills, serfdom and vassalage wit PRO longbows to abse those hills would break Jowy and Mardoc after they spend 20 turns fucking about.

Mass windmills + Vassalage + Serfdom is absolutely the way to go on this map. The thing is, I can't see a pre-ren-era war being successful here. Almost every city is on hills and there's shitloads of hills everywhere, which means Knights won't be very effective - you'll need a 1-mover army with tons of seige. It can be possible to do that with eng-era tech (elphants/cats/trebs/xbows/etc) but then you have to worry about the third guy... either he waits for you to have a big clash and then sweeps in to take just as much land with half the effort, or he stabs you in the back.

I agree that cottage spam won't work here, but isn't windmill spam just as good economically, at least in the classical/medieval era? e.g. compare a 2/3 grassland village vs a 2/2/1 grassland hill windmill - the village gets better benefit from a library (although a city with a library+forge is identical for either tile), but the windmill comes online instantly (without needing to work a shit tile for 30 turns beforehand) and is more flexible (e.g. you can use the 2 hammers as hammers or even work a different tile, guilt-free).

You are right IMO that the windmill is better. It also gives more hammers for military, and at the same time your two opponents whom are trying to kkill each other are much weaker, and the land tilesscrew up the idea of "sweeping in and taking half of hte cities for lower cost". On this map I don't think there is ever going to be a point where you can just roll in with a significant unit type, strength advantage and win because the amount of land available is too equally proportioned. Even going over seas for more isnald land doesn't help much. So plan to slog it out IMO, grab what you can with Henge cities that are widely spaced so you don't pay too much for them. After everty one is dead then suck up the short term cost and cottage however many cities you need and roll over the islands as you can.

This is the type of map that I'd love to play Mongolia or Zulu on, but frankly it's just a bitch to figure out what to build. You need HA and knights to flank cats and trebs with but they lack that offensive power to threaten to take cities. You want more LB and Xbows. how do you rebalance stack composition without building more units and then struggle to tech with the lack of cottageable land...you don't really, other than Merc and Nationhood to draft muskets and then run up to Cannon. But until then, position to make the most cities in the game and make them the most productive, and ideally also leave space in the dot map for draft camps IMO.

[GermanJoey]

Yeah, I don't even know what an ideal unit composition would look like here. muskets + cannons seem good, yeah... I normally think of that as a single-player rush strat, but yeah, if you can get a tech advantage, that's especially the way to go.

[GermanJoey]

I'm thinking of my comment about forts and galleons combined with muskets + cannons and its like, its basically like doing reaver drops in starcraft...



Zip in to the backlines; blow up the unprepared defenders; zip out!