[LURKERS] Setting Up Tents for a Ren Faire

[Krill]

Yeah, the start is great as a puzzle. I don't think there is any specific right answer, just got to match up a specific set of start micro to a specific strategy, and that depends on what leader/civ combo you have. Definitely up there in terms of "best mirrored starts" for games on RB.

I'm not sure how important commerce is for IMP specifically. I just know that without SPI the aim is basically to get bigger than the SPI players, build an army and get a land advantage before SPI can turn that flexibility into an edge to both defend better and still be able to outtech IMP. If IMP focusses on production and a rush to claim land, the IMP player might find themselves up against a SPI player that used Pacifism to bulb something IMP can't handle. I think the IMP players just need to not neglect Commerce, or try to leverage easily whipped settlers into enough land, and then invest into a cottage capital (and then OU) as a mid term investment. Whipped settlers and growing onto cottages is possibly a no brainer for IMP though? I definitely agree with the bureau cap point: I've written previously about how SPI can settle the capital for the 1N of pigs city, and use that to keep upo with expansion, but then that limits SPI abilty to actually tech due to that lack of bureau cottage cap. It puts the ball back into IMPs court about how to build a tech advantage, but then SPI can counter with a bulb strategy.

I mean, if IMP sets up that 1N of pigs city (and not as the capital), that abrogates any need for slavery IMO, and opens up easy use of Caste or Serfdom, but then what are the aims for all those cities you settle? Grow them to 6 and draft to kill someone? But if you also focus on the capital as a commerce city, you kind of get the best of both worlds. That's why I think capital adjacent to corn and marble and second city 1N of pigs is a sound dot map for IMP, it is a very flexible dotmap.

If I'm playing a spi leader, I'm having to think about how to defend a rush and also not get out expanded. I don't know how I'd manage that TBH.

[Krill]

Looking over the map more and more, Mardoc, I gotta say, it looks beautiful. Can't praise the work you put into it enough.

[BRickAstley]

Looks like the Banana tile Alhazard mentioned was an intentional change: all the Sims have it as a hill, all the actual starts have it flatland.

I don't think I can say anything publicly or else that confirms mirror starts, which was never explicitly stated.

[Krill]

Meh. It's a good change. I reckon Mardoc did it because the land south of that is actually quite low food, splitting off that banana is one of hte dot map decisions that needs to be made.

[The Black Sword]

I figured it was fine to say something since the players would not expect the revealed area to change unless informed otherwise.

[picklepikkl]

Yeah, I'd say we should twig the players to that. No need to confirm mirror starts: just pop into the threads and say "hey, this tile is different from the original reveal." Different lurkers could even make the posts in different threads so it's less obvious.

[GermanJoey]

Heh, I couldn't resist simming, these starts are pretty fun.

Settling the capital for the iron/pig/corn with the Imp civs makes a lot of sense to me, but I don't understand why you delayed the second settlement by a turn in order to grab a new dry corn when your original wet corn will sit unworked for a good 20, 25 turns. If you're planning to keep the capital at a small size for awhile and work hammer tiles anyways, then why not share the food?

My personal feeling is that chopping too much too early is a mistake. I completely agree that if you're gonna chop early then to only chop into settlers, which are extremely expensive and would otherwise throttle the capital's growth for a very long time. (chopping into workers is playing Rube Goldberg civ). However, now that your fast settler is done, what can you do with your capital? You have no food tiles improved, so you can't grow the cap anyways, and thus the argument of "chopping now so we don't limit the capital's growth" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. After this settler, I think you'd just end up making another worker, which would be purposed towards improving the capital's pig and corn as presumably your other workers would be sent to road to and improve tiles at the new city, and the new worker at the second city is needed to improve its own food tiles. And, I dunno, just leaving all these 5 and 6 yield food tiles sitting around idle for dozens of turns feels off to me...

IMHO, because there's so little land that players will actually need to compete with each other to claim, it'd be worth it for an Imp player to "hedge their bets" by refraining from chopping much at all early on, or perhaps just a bit, and instead relying on the whip a bit more heavily. If they find that they're falling behind where they expected themselves to be compared to other players then they can always chop later - those forests will still be there. But, OTOH, if they feel like they're still doing ok REXing-wise, then they've now got an ace in their pocket for something else. A big problem that Scooter/Sulla struggled with in PB33 was their severe lack of infrastructure compared to REM, and its tougher to get that expensive stuff up later, when you want your capital to be working grassland cottages and growing rather than whipping and working hammer tiles.

[GermanJoey]

If I'm playing a spi leader, I'm having to think about how to defend a rush and also not get out expanded. I don't know how I'd manage that TBH.

Don't forget that there's a lot of ways for the Spi civ to scrape up extra hammers here and there... for example, you can get most of the use of both Slavery and Serfdom, so you'll need less workers overall. The religious civics help too... you can make use OR when building infra, Pacifism to spend less turns working specialists, Theocracy can maybe let you avoid Barracks for a little while. Caste can pop borders cheaply, Nationhood can help you get garrisons for cheap, I'm sure there's other stuff I'm forgetting, etc.

Adding it all up obviously won't equal Imp's bonus on these insanely expensive settlers, but it will narrow the gap a lot I think, at least enough such you can still be competitive. I mean, Imp is saving 32h/settler in a Bureau cap and 57h/settler when built in other cities... its huge but not completely insurmountable. And, like you say Spi does stuff besides just get you free hammers...

[The Black Sword]

Settling the capital for the iron/pig/corn with the Imp civs makes a lot of sense to me, but I don't understand why you delayed the second settlement by a turn in order to grab a new dry corn when your original wet corn will sit unworked for a good 20, 25 turns. If you're planning to keep the capital at a small size for awhile and work hammer tiles anyways, then why not share the food?

I didn't plan on leaving the capital small at all actually. Originally I wanted the pigs and corn hooked immediately but all the worker actions seem too damn efficient:

1. Connect horses - 2nd improved tile.
2. Chop a forest - This 1 turns a worker with some overflow for the settler.
3. Chop 2 forests - This completes a settler
4. Mine the iron - necessary to complete the settler a turn earlier and an improved tile to work.

3 worker turns(in serfdom) for 67h is just too nuts to delay IMO, it snowballs too hard to hold it back for later. The corn is only lying fallow for about 10t IIRC(it gets hooked next with the pig, screw the new city) and I don't see where I get the opportunity to hook it earlier, even if it were shared with the second city.

[Krill]

Early chops into workers and settlers aren't wasted due to snowball effects, unless the worker turns are put into unused improvements. Yeah, improving corn is good but bureau iron tile is better and one is always going to be done first.

Looking at the map TBS, where does the third city go? For the ivory?