Research costs

[Nelphine]

Wraith Form - Mana Leak - Disagree, we want Weapon Immunity and transportation early, if anything WF should be faster but it's a really good spell...on the other hand Mana Leak is useless for a while as nothing early does magical ranged except ghouls.

That's fine, I had suggested it because wraithform is super awesome, and mana leak is meh, but not worried about it.

Cockatrices - Catapult : Unsure, I feel catapults are better. In fact I have a "consider raising casting cost" note on that. Also want at least one of the three summons in a middle slot.

I didn't realize that note existed regarding catapult. That's fine then.

AEther Binding : This is something I often rush research for. So I want it to be reasonably accessible, even if not early, but not too late either. Being able to do that and get ahead in skill production from ~turn 50-60 onwards is one of the merits of playing Sorcery.
If we want cheaper Spell Lock, I can swap it with Vertigo. For cheaper Counter Magic we can swap with Dispelling Wave. We can also move Beast down 1 slot if needed while doing that.

This is specifically about aether binding - of course we rush it, its the single best uncommon spell from any realm. It SHOULD be expensive. It costs double right now,and its probably worth at least triple. But having spell blast at double makes too much sense. I don't really want any of the sorcery uncommons lower than average, but gotta make the best of it.

Fireball - Raise Volcano : Cheaper Fireball would definitely be nice but not sure I like more expensive Volcano. What if we swap with Chaos Channels instead?

I feel chaos channels epitomizes the chaos realm and would much rather keep it cheap. Similarly, I think chaos is about direct damage, so at least one direct damage spell per rarity should be below average research cost. Raise volcano on the other hand should be more expensive - it has economic benefits, and does something nothing else can (create/destroy ores) - plus it should be as expensive as is reasonable to ensure corruption has as much place as possible.

Firestorm to 1920; Chimeras to 1600; Lightning Bolt to 1280 : You didn't specify what goes to the 2140 slot which is probably the reason for this whole change?

Oh hell, mystic surge goes to 2140. Its brutally powerful. (Probably 3rd best uncommon of any realm.) Also lightning bolt being direct damage in chaos I think should be no more than average.

Prayer has always been the most expensive Life spell to research and I rather keep it that way, it is that good. That however prevents us from shifting the other 3 upward.

That's fine, I forgot prayer was that expensive already.

Black Prayer - Possession : unsure, I think this change would hit AI a bit too hard, Possession is their first pick so it directly defines how long it takes for AI to reach UC in death. Might even be better to swap Possession with Syphon Life (as they are competing spells the AI won't do the SL if they did get Possession to show up) 

That's fine.

Nature - Earth Elemental is very powerful and this would put it really close to the other combat summon (Catapult). For more expensive Earthquake we can swap with idk, Gaea's Blessing maybe? Human is unlikely to pick up Earthquake at full price though.

Earth elemental is also pure crap against many things. Its a summoning spell in the summoning realm, it should be cheap. No more than average at most. Gaias blessing us amazing and should be above average. Not a lot of good choices for below average in nature on this tier which is why I ended up with earth elemental there. (Which has a completely different role than catapult so I'm OK with them bring close together.)

Mind Storm - Air Elemental : Ok

Warp Lightning - Chaos Rift : Don't want it that close to Lightning Bolt, also it's a VERY powerful spell. Meanwhile Rift takes time to be effective.

Note that this was following my 'put a direct combat spell below average in each tier'. However, I'm fine with not changing this.

Doom Bolt - Efreet : Ok

Life : Isn't Invulnerability way too good for the cheaper slot? Rather swap Invulnerability with Altar of Battle.

I considered that at first actually, so I'm OK with it. However, that weapon immunity practically begs for invulnerability to be as early as possible. Also see my concerns about invulnerability vs blur. I just don't think invulnerability is a full rare any more - at best its a very strong uncommon. (And the top 3 uncommons across all reslms are all certainly better than invulnerability.

Death : We agreed on city curses being in the cheap slots in the old system. Changing that would be a major shift in the game, and would mean we need to delay AI research of these things most likely. Currently they are all early picks done before the second half of uncommons.

Yeah I had a hard time with rare death. Over half of them should be below average. I ended up here because I'm in the camp that thinks wrack and terror have to come as early as possible, or they simply never see use. However, if you plan to revisit those spells soon, I'd be OK with it.. However famine and warp node are both really really good for the AI, so despite previous agreement, I think they are less bad choices for average price than terror and wrack.
[Quote]
Herb Mastery - Regeneration : Ok
Call the Void - Meteor Storm : Ok, this will help the AI too, great idea!
Call to Arms - Holy Arms : Rather not swap these.
[quote]

All good!

[Seravy]

AEther Binding :
There are plenty of uncommon Sorcery that should be more expensive.
Counter Magic, the current version, is brutally powerful against uncommons and commons and not very fun to play against. Definitely deserves a "more expensive" slot.
Phantom Beast is plain good. It used to be the most expensive in the vanilla MoM and rightfully so. It's a heavy hitting defense ignoring combat summon, kinda a walking doom bolt.
Dispelling Wave is a very strong counter to a frequent common/uncommon strategy, buffing, and it's also not fun to fight against while very overpowered in the hands of humans. Shouldn't be early.
Spell Blast is a rare tier spell in an uncommon slot pretty much.
Aura of Majesty and AEther Binding are also great spells but they aren't unfun and are worth getting early, so I rather put those to the cheap slots so there is room for the others.

I actually think it might be better to let Sorcery AI rush for AEther Binding instead of Aura of Majesty. Early AI alliances are unfun and Sorcery now with Water Elemental and strong Nagas (even if we nerf them they should remain a decent creature for AI.) can defend itself. What do you think?

Earth Elemental is brutally powerful at least in the hand of humans. Their price is also closer to rares then uncommons (50 each). But even for the AI it's crazy powerful, not much garrisons can deal with 3 earth elementals popping out of nowhere and not every realm has spells to counter it. It's also a fairly late AI pick so high cost does no harm (while low cost would not help at all. It's powerful but too situational to pick first for the AI.)
Gaea's Blessing on the other hand is great but the effect takes a while to work. If the cities take another 5-6 years after casting it to actually reach that 50% larger size, then it coming late makes the spell somewhat obsolete - by then you should be close to winning the game. I think it would fit their role better if it wasn't expensive. It's comparable (albeit slightly superior to) Stream of Life which is an expensive uncommon.

Raise Volcano, well, hard to justify 1200+ research cost for 2 power volcanoes at first sight. So it's not really good as an economic spell in the current system. If anything, it should be in the cheapest slot but that's for Gargoyles and Chaos Channels... Maybe we want volcanoes to produce more power to go along with the power inflation this change brings? Albeit the "uncommon" phase specifically does not need the additional power so idk.
It would help if you presented some economy math to prove volcanoes are a good economy investment, even with the 1280 research cost. Maybe we want to tinker with the chance of volcanoes reverting to mountains instead to ensure they last longer and function as a long term investment? (As is you get 2 power for each and I think they have a 1% chance to revert so each lasts 100 turns.)

Mystic Surge, you vastly overrate this. It's nowhere near Fire Storm. I did realize it's not swapped on AI research with Flame Blade though so they got it as their first uncommon which was bad. This will be fixed.
That said, I'm ok with swapping it with Lightning Bolt, or maybe Chimeras too, but definitely not Fire Storm. I have doubts about it though - it has a double role of a situational gamble spell (you don't invest heavily in those) and AI counter to certain human strategies. These functions actually demand an average or below cost.

Rare death I think first we need to decide what we want the new Evil Presence to do, if we are going to change it. After that we can think about costs and AI research order. The three curses are one big package deal, so they need to stick together in cost.

[Nelphine]

Aether binding is whwt makes dispelling wave powerful. Aether binding is what makes dispel magic powerful. Aether binding makes the AI use all types of dispel more often. Aether binding is certainly unfun, AND even after the Nerf, its the best economy spell in the game pre-very rares.

I would utterly hate ai's rushing this spell, far worse than 4 way AI alliances. Heck, I'd prefer the AI rush phantom beast.

Counter magic may also be super strong - unfortunately I don't have enough experience with it yet.

Nature rare: as I said, none of these really like being below average. I'll probably be OK with whatever you decide here.

Raise volcano: its not about how good the economy bonus is, its about having ANY economy bonus in chaos. Its not an amazing bonus so by itself if could be below average. But it destroys/creates ores, which is not possible in any other way - that brings it back up to average. And it needs to be far from corruption - again, needs to be at least average. And fireball is an iconic chaos spell - this is ideal for below average.

Mystic surge: you vastly underrate this. Any spell that can make a lone swordsmen fight off a stack 9 shadow demons is brutal. Of course its a gamble, but the speed boost alone is worth the cost. 95% of the time you get buffs that balance the resist penalty. 50% of the time you get buffs that increase the creature to be equal to the next rarity up in addition to whatever balances the resist penalty. And about 15% of the time the unit becomes so powerful it singlehandedly destroys everything.

It competes with doom bolt, but it's on the tier with fireball. Once you have mystic surge anything weaker than a rare isn't worth casting unless you're already 100% sure you're going to win, and simply want to avoid taking any damage.

Death: like I said, I agree on city curses. Just, terror and wrack are so bad they can't have higher costs or they'll never be used.

[Seravy]

Ok, I'll swap Raise Volcano with Fireball. I've made a note to look at the volcano reverting chance and maybe power production later.
I'll also avoid making the AI rush for AEther Binding - albeit it will still be their second pick once in the uncommon tier, they won't do it during commons like Aura of Majesty. I still rather have Dispelling Wave as the expensive spell - without it there is nothing overly powerful to double. (Dispel Magic is not that good, only annoying.)

[Nelphine]

The economy bonus alone is worth the extra cost (that's why humans rush it). The dispel bonus simply makes it unfun, and something we don't want the ai to be able to rush.

Also edited the previous post about mystic surge.

[Seravy]

No idea why you consider Terror weak. It's a great spell. Not only is it the better half of Prayer (-1 to hit on enemy is comparable to +1 To Def on you) but in additional enemy units skip half their turns. So less ranged attacks, first strike, etc coming your way too.
Wrack is definitely a bit too situational, but when it works, it's great. We might want to think about how to improve it instead of reducing research cost.

[Nelphine]

Actually I may be knee jerjing on aether binding. The whole point of the research cost changes are to balance power spending better, so it might be OK as average or only 1600.

Terror: I don't care about enemy units. Its enemy spells that kill. This does nothing to make me kill their units faster, nor does it make my units better against the enemy spells.

And yes I agree improving wrack would be better than changing cost. If you plan to do so, I'm fine leaving wrack and terror at average, even without changing the spells yet.

[Suriname]

Is cost going to be used as AI trading desirability as well? Or is there a different table for that?

AI trade desirability is a separate value and I have no plans to change that. How useful the spell is for the AI should be the major factor there, not the cost.

This makes trading very unintuitive. Do you care at all about user friendliness?

Wraith Form - Mana Leak - Disagree, we want Weapon Immunity and transportation early, if anything WF should be faster but it's a really good spell...on the other hand Mana Leak is useless for a while as nothing early does magical ranged except ghouls.

Sprites, shamans, acolytes and other dark elves... Priests crusaders saints... Ships work for transportation.

[Seravy]

Trading doesn't need to be intuitive - the AI will tell you which spells they can trade you and will also tell you what they accept in exchange. Then you are free to say no and pick something else if you don't like the offer.

I guess I underestimated the usefulness of Mana Leak a little. Still it's a very good spell when it works, and honestly, it would be fair even as an uncommon. I see nothing wrong with a high research cost for it.

[Seravy]

To be more precise, each spell is worth as many "points" as the slot they appear in their realm. So commons are 1-10, uncommons are 11-20, rares are 21-30 and very rares 31-40. Then the AI adds a modifier based on how good that spell is for them. That can push a spell roughly one tier, rarely one and a half higher or lower. So you won't be seeing AI trading Haste for Web or anything stupid like that. But they might want an uncommon for Healing because it's better than most commons. And they might want your Magic Immunity for their Spell Blast.