Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[Bigger]

hmm, I just saw pbem16 and pb20 in oyour sig, I need to read them.

I do think SPI is leaps and bounds above other civics. but its probably less overpowering than FIN is in vanilla, so thats ok. I think you've done as good as a job as possible to make "all traits/civics" viable, insofar as make them all viable is just an impossible goal, imo. But you've done far better than I could have, and I think that shows you have a better understanding of game mechanics than I do (evidence: my rant in the early stages of pb8 on protective and how we got screwed by it. Now that we're 100+ turns in and I've played with it a bit, I love PRO in rbmod).

That said, I still think the goal of preventing "one right best strategy" fell short - you just changed what that one right strategy is. And of course it might be different based on the map.

I was only talking about rbmod here. Obviously I think FS is very viable in vanilla. its probably the only viable late game civic in most games, whereas environmentalism is almost always unplayable - and the two have just switched places in rbmod. I see your point about specific situations where towns would be necessary - I am just not sure that would happen very often. if EVERYBODY is really lacking in land, then I think you're still better off with hammers and food (and rep/environmentalism powered specialists for tech) and grabbing everyone elses land. if only YOU are lacking in land (i.e. scooter and Brick in pb5) I think you're screwed long term, regardless.

I think FS suffers because cottages aren't practical long term in rbmod. assuming you have the tech to unlock them fully, specialists are better for tech, and allow you to use workshops and mines for hammers - with both slavery and drafting nerfed, hammers become even more critical. without towns, both free market and SP become so much better for your economy than FS.

That requires a lot of medieval techs, of course, so if the game ends earlier\doesnt reach that stage, cottages/towns can be much more powerful. in that situation, though, FS probably isn't unlocked (since it requires scientific method). maybe making FS available sooner (liberalism) and environmentalism later would be good?? I don't know.

anyway I'm just splitting hairs, I like the rbmod now that I've played it a bit. its almost like a new game, fun to figure out correct strategies . I'm sure you could find a situation where FS is very useful, just like you could find some weird situation where environmentalism is useful in vanilla, I just don't think they are that common.

[Qgqqqqq]

How can you possibly say that towns are useful early but not late???
Specialists can compete with a towns based economy, tis true, but they can by no means supplant it!
Consider late game. (for you have said that cottages are early game) - a bio farm and rep/merc scientist has 6b/1g/4f out put, while two towns have 4f/14c/2h yield.
(Example assumes two lakeside grass tiles)
Yes this is fully boosted, but you said longterm they couldn't compete, I would argue the opposite is true.
Couple of caveats: this ignores GPP, but in a late game empire, most cities won't ever complete their pools, it ignores GA which greatly boost the towns.
Workshops ARE better for hammers, but rush buying can compete, and is much more versatile.

[Bigger]

Q - how exactly does the town economy produce units? or buildings, for that matter. farms allow workshops to be worked when they are needed, and specialists when they aren't. or a combo of the two. cottages don't. I just think hammers are much more important in rbmod than in vanilla.

And I am a terrible cottage spammer in vanilla.

unless you mean cash-rushing, I don't see how rush buying can compete, with slavery and drafted both heavily nerfed.

Anyway thats just my opinion, i don't claim to be an expert.

[Qgqqqqq]

Why can't cash rushing compete?
And tbh, why can't a cottage economy build workshops?
The only competition is CS, which will be wanted long term anyway (farms/ws are still viable without SP)
It just requires specialization, something you want anyway.

[Qgqqqqq]

Besides, WE and SE compete in the economy line anyway.

[Krill]

Cash rush. The numbers are identical to vanilla BtS. In fact once everything is unlocked the only differences to vanilla are Environmentalism making specialists more productive, and you can't have both FS and SP.

[Krill]

Just to check, changing Kublai to CRE/CHM from Cre/AGG and improving Arabia are the only items that needs fixing, right? I'll change Arabia to Agri/Myst starting techs FWIW if those are the only needed fixes beyond the known tech bonus "bug". (Yes, I consider it a bug).

[Bigger]

I was thinking the other day.. we should change the aqueduct.. make it a building that gives a +10% (or whatever) to food production ( or have it give a +x food like a supermarket), then add a building that gives +2 health sometime in the industrial age (when people would normally build an aqueduct anyway). or have it give a +x food like a supermarket.

Just an idea to get people interested in actually building an aqueduct when it was historically built, and when it is available.

[pindicator]

Would you change Madrassas any, Krill?
Brick- interesting idea, and you're right that nobody builds aquaducts. 10% may be too much though. That's +1fpt for just being size 5

[Commodore]

Yeah, Barays aren't exactly wowie awesome buildings with their +1f. Aqueducts suck, it's life, and Ottomen still are liked by some poor saps. I'd say just the KK and Arabia changes, those are the two big remaining balance outliers. Although I still miss my Numidapults.