[SPOILER] Darius of Ottomans - Vets - Krill

[mackoti]

Man i like how you think, do you have space for some powerfull workshop, or everithing is cover in cottage?

[Krill]

I got space for 1 more minor city with food res, 1 without. Everything else is pretty much maxed out on usable land tiles now. But with a Bank/Market/Grocer, Kremlin and 6 towns (most cities have more) I'm looking at 2-3 turn tank builds in every city. With my capital and 2-3 of my other cities subsidising the rest, I should be able to match a proper workshop city with forge, factory and power plant for production.

[mackoti]

Usualy i dont like cottages to much , i like to build 4 or 5 cities with cotages(wich will get unis and other stuf) and everething rest for workshop, farms , and reprezentation specialist, but this has a big problem people usualy run for democracy and emancipation wich criple me if i play like i said before.
For example in your game with Cyneheard(pbem 5), if wasn't for emancipation trouble I was going(If i had played that) for comunism and powerfull workshop very fast, i don't care about democracy because you can build wealth and research 100% in cities with cotages and so oxford is way strong and i believe I could lunch space ship in 17 century.I think 18 cities were more than enough for getting 2000 beakers per turn.But emancipacion just criple state propercy caste sitem and for that i hate it.

[Krill]

Hmm, how to explain economic strategy in a paragraph.

Civ is a game of investments, and you should always take the long term view except when that leaves you open to attack from others that have taken a much shorter term, and benefited from that shorter term view. Cottages are the longest term investment you can make, but require civics, turns, and every single city improvement in the game to have their full flexibility. Specs are the second longest investment and have diminishing returns (GPP) and happy cap limits that you will lack in MP games. The short term investments are Workshops which at their absolute best, require only pop, worker turns and simple civics, are good for warfare. Compared to basic towns using appropriate civics for both, workshops with a full set up (forge, factory and power plant) equal towns with no city improvements for gold, and beaker generation. For production, ie, military, workshops work out as the best option.

That is a one dimensional explanation of what each does. Neither is better than the other without additional information, such as map terrain, GP needs, tech paths, enemy traits, game settings...

I think an interesting comparison here is with PBEM2. There I took the shorter term view, and didn't build a single cottage, I built everything towards the aim of keeping everyone under my thumb and forcing them to react to my strategies and tactics. Here I took the longer term view and haven't built a single workshop (although that is partly down to workshops being crap in the early game).

[mackoti]

To bad i am not fluent in english and cant say what i think.I will try again . I build cotages in the begining of the game and use great persons to get fast to best workshops.Why? Because this way my cities will be at their potential faster, and after that i can build wealth in the cities with workshops so my science will grow because i already have the science builds in the beggining cities.Ye but you right is map dependent and oponents if they let you to just develop for a while.

[Krill]

Teched Economics in 1 to stop any smart arse bulb Edu, bulb econ finish econ in 1 turn to deny GM. Back to Democracy next turn.

[mackoti]

nice.

[Krill]

Democracy is in, and I think because Whosit has gone up the Optics line I need to follow him. I can get both Compass and Optics at break even (I could get both in one turn at break even if the game allowed it...), so the question now is when do I pop that GA from the GM?

Decisions decisions.

And I still have over 25% of the world pop, have had for the past 25 turns plus I think.

I would have 19 towns benefit from FS...by the end of the GA it would be more than 25, with Emancipation, with Emancipation it would be more like 40 Towns...and I feel that I could without Nationhood for 6 turns at least...Bureaucracy is worth about an additional 1100 beakers (including GA bonus) as well. FR would be worth an additional 60, so maybe 80 bpt in GA?

Grah, next turn I'm going to have to bite the bullet and toss a coin. But with the additional outlay of having to go up to Astro now (and observatories), popping that GA is looking more and more inviting.

[Krill]

Looking at the turn, it might actually be best to save as much gold while research Compass and Optics in 1 turn a piece, then popping the GA for 6 straight turns of research...if I go US/Bureau/Emancipation/Merc/FR. If I go Rep/Bureau/Emancipation/Merc/FR I might as well change next turn because the additional beakers from Rep and the slightly faster cottage growth should make up for running at 90% tech instead of 100% tech.

ARGH.

[Krill]

OK, list of all possible civics sets, with abbreviations because I'm lazy.

• Rep: Representation
  
• HR: Heditary rule
  
• US: Universal Suffrage
  
  
  
• Bu: Bureaucracy
  
• Nh: Nationhood
  
• FS: Free Speech
  
  
  
• Sv: Slavery
  
• Ec: Emancipation
  
  
  
• OR: Organized Religion
  
• Tc: Theocracy
  
• FR: Free Religion

Now, let's consider the merits of each civic.

• Rep: Representation
  
  Worth a straight up 14*3*1.25 beakers empire wide, so that is 52.5 bpt, plus an additional 3 happiness in 5 largest cities which is completely irrelevant for me. It will give me an additional 52.5 bpt when SoL completes (for the love of god sunrise don;t you dare beat me to this or I will go spare).
  
  
  
• HR: Heditary rule
  
  Worthless for me atm, I do not need the happiness given by the units in my border cities (I have enough sources already) and every other city has only one unit.
  
  
  
• US: Universal Suffrage
  
  Ultimately worth about 70 spt, but mainly useful for the ability to cash rush. I've almost finished banks in all of my major cities, but I don't want to cash rush anything just yet, and I only have 19 towns atm (in next 5 turns that increases to over 25 though). Now, what would I need those hammers for? To finish markets, grocers, observatories and frigates. But I can revolt to US at the end of the GA (I've already ruled out the idea of revolting without the GA), althought revolting at the start of the GA would give me an easy extra 200 hammers compared to Rep.
  
  
  
• Bu: Bureaucracy
  
  Worth 215 bpt in a GA? And an additional 10 hpt without US? Obviously still important, even if only for 5 turns.
  
  
  
• Nh: Nationhood
  
  Ability to draft rifles, the current best units in the game for defensive purposes. The +25% EP is worth...5 ept. Nah, it's not really competitive, is it, unless compared to the cost of fighting a defensive war. sunrise isn't stupid enough to walk in on me with just cats and some cuirs against rifles and knights (guess what I built one of last turn?). He'll lose the cats and then he is totally screwed. But I already have 6-8 rifles on sunrises border. And Cyneheard only has knights so totally not worried there.
  
  
  
• FS: Free Speech
  
  Hmmm, this is worth 38 base commerce, soon to be base 50 in multiple cities, with less beaker multipliers than the capital has. Long term definitely worth more than Bu, especially when the +100% culture is taken into account because that I could use to steal one of the outer tiles of Cyneheards. The question is when do I want to shift into FS, rather than if, and I don't think that the time is right now, but I need to revolt during another GA. When is the next GA likely to happen? Not until after I research Communism (8 turns total, 3 GA), so not really worth worrying about, right?
  
  
  
• Sv: Slavery
  
  Look, I'm not whipping away villages and towns so this can sod right off. Even if I get Kremlin.
  
  
  
• Ec: Emancipation
  
  Obviously the only choice but I'll type anyway. Doubles the cottage growth (so speeds up the gain of 2/1/8 tiles), which means in the medium term you gain commerce and hammers but this also brings forward the date of the next GA to get into FS/US if I'm not already in them, the sacrifice there being I would give up the short term benefit of Rep and Bu to be in US/FS. That's a decision that is onlythere because of the effect of Emancipation.
  
  
  
• OR: Organized Religion
  
  The plus 25% hammers to buildings gets better the more infrastructure you need, the more hammers you make to get multiplied (if only because it lets you get into other civics quicker after making the city improvements you need). Luckily I don't need the second bonus (missionary production because I have 2 cities with goood hpt with monasteries) so I'm only in need of considering the hpt to buildings. But what buildings do I need? Markets, grocers and banks are being finished
  
  
  
• Tc: Theocracy
  
  Not if I'm teching to tanks before building an army.
  
  
  
• FR: Free Religion
  
  +10% bpt is a lot when breakeven bpt before multipliers is around 450, 500 with Rep. The happiness, well, I do have a second religion I can spread and I can always tech DR in 1 turn...but it is the obvious choice while teching with limited infrastructure to build. The cost in anarchy due to needing to change religion and happiness loss there in doesn't happen due to the GA and religion spread in every city.

Conclusions in the next post...