Yamps Wrote:Just a question about dedicated lurker behavior since I'm pretty much new to this forum, are we free to discuss everything? That would be alright in a SGOTM on Civfanatics with lurkers attached to the team. However, I've had another look on the lurker behavior thread so I'm not so sure anymore...
Well, I'm not the official ruler of this game, that would be Gold Ergo Sum. Hopefully he'll speak up if I'm wrong about this.
But generally at RB, so long as you have no knowledge of the game that Lord Parkin doesn't, you can say whatever you want. That means, basically, that you only read this thread, the signup thread, and the tech issues thread (and the lurker behavior thread). As long as you do only that, you're clear to talk about anything. This is what we mean by 'dedicated lurker'.
As soon as you get any knowledge that your lurkee doesn't, by reading any other players' thread or the lurker thread, then you've got to clam up, give only game mechanics info (and generally only info that's asked for), or give only vague and unhelpful comments like generic congratulations or naming schemes. The idea is that it's too easy for spoiler information to slip out, and if that happens then we wreck people's willingness to post.
From memory, the lurker thread here is a bit confusing because it doesn't talk about dedicated lurkers at all. It's about global lurkers. When I read it I at first thought this game wasn't having any dedicated lurkers at all. But the reality for dedicated lurkers is like Mardoc says, you can post what you want if you don't have any game specific information that Lord Parkin doesn't have.
Well, certainly an interesting read as I woke up this morning.
Yamps Wrote:Ok, to add a few comments of my own: ()
IMO, Joe should have been exploring down the river SE from the capital to check for second's city spot.
Yeah, you might be right. We'll do that with the next guy, if Joe doesn't start an anticlockwise loop before then. Still have a little while until the Settler arrives, so it's not urgent enough to switch all other plans just yet.
Yamps Wrote:Also, the sheep-fur spot up north seems appealing for the third city to get some early commerce. Maybe even for the second city, plains hill 2E from the sheep tile looks good.
Eh, looks pretty average to me. That plains-Cow tile is not at all an ideal one to share with the capital. Maybe that'll be the best we can do with this low-food map, but I'd much prefer to find either two low-food resources, or perhaps one high-food resource (Pig or Corn ideally) for our second city.
It's certainly worth keeping your spot in mind for a later city, perhaps adjusting the spot slightly after exploring further up north (if more resources are revealed). However, it doesn't really do much for us right away. Low food means it can't work all those hills, it needs a border expansion to get both the Sheep and the Furs (we're still not guaranteed Stonehenge yet), and we don't need the Fur happiness immediately anyway (being Charismatic). All in all not ideal.
Also keep in mind that we haven't revealed Horses yet, and that may be quite a large influence on where we want to settle our second city anyway. So let's wait a bit and see if we find anything better close by.
Yamps Wrote:I don't think you need a second worker right now. I'd go with settler next, aiming to get the second city up asap.
Thing is, you really needed to bring this up before the turn flipped if you felt strongly about it. Up until then we could have changed our build, but we will have put hammers into the Worker build now, so it's not worth wasting that to switch to a Settler. Besides, there are reasons for going for a second Worker which I'll detail below.
Yamps Wrote:The plains hill city could pick up the cows tile from the capital, the first worker should have it done by that time.
Yes, but then we're stuck with 1 Worker improving two cities for a very long time - because we're now pretty much set on getting Stonehenge early, so won't be building more Workers until post turn 40. That 1 Worker will have to build all the roads, farms and (soon) mines for two cities by himself. It's just not efficient.
Bear in mind also that if we have to settle the second city a wee while away (to claim Horses or some other attractive resource), having two Workers will be necessary for roading to the location in reasonable time. That was actually part of the attractiveness in the plan of going for early Animal Husbandry while building a second Worker.
Senseless Wrote:I agree with Yamps about the second worker. Since we're getting BW so late, and chops aren't a factor, the second worker doesn't really do much right now. I think the initial worker can improve all three resource tiles before we grow enough to use them, assuming we go settler now.
But the second Worker can speed up farming immediately, mining soon, and most importantly - he can help to road in advance to the location of our second city as soon as we pick one (probably soon after Animal Husbandry). I don't think that's "not really doing much" for us.
Senseless Wrote:The question is, do we want to start the settler now or grow to size 3 first?
I would very much suggest that we don't switch our build on the second Worker now that it has food and hammers invested into it. I'll say it again, but the time for changing our plans on the second Worker was really before the current turn arrived. If we switch now, we completely waste a turn of early-game production. Plus, we throw away the chance to road towards Horses (or another attractive resource) in time for a second city. It might have been worth switching before the turn flipped, but now that it's the new turn, I really don't think it is.
No offence to either of you, Yamps and Senseless - it's great to have fresh input and new ideas. We just need to try to discuss things in advance of the turns where it's necessary to implement them. Besides, the current plan isn't bad - a second Worker has its advantages (as we discussed earlier), so it's not the end of the world.
Krill Wrote:Dedicated lurkers aren't really lurkers, they are players that don't do much.
Thanks for the clarification. Although from reading up on other games, I get the feeling it depends a bit on the person. Some dedicated lurkers seem to post almost as much as (or more than!) the "official" player, while others seem to prefer to sit back and watch while only making the occasional comment (if they even post at all). Either type is fine with me... I'm happy for my dedicated lurkers to post as much (or as little) as they please.
Bob moved 1W this turn, revealing a plains-Sheep near luddite. (Still haven't seen luddite's borders yet, should only be another turn or two by my estimate.) Where to next turn - 1NW or 1SW? Either option seems decent.
Joe also moved 1W this turn, and look what he found! A lovely Pig tile, our first genuinely decent food resource!
Unfortunately it's stuck on what looks to be a land bridge (or peninsula), but perhaps it could be part of a decent Moai city. Given that it's the first decent (and readily available!) food resource we've found, I'd definitely recommend that we explore at least a couple of tiles towards the Pigs to see if it might be worth settling them with our second city. If it turns out to be all unresourced flatland to the south/west, we can probably safely ignore that area for a while. But if there happen to be some hills/forests to the south/west, perhaps in conjunction with some other resources, it could definitely be worth considering for a second city.
Actually, I guess the tile where Joe is at the moment could be a half-decent Moai city. Still, while we're nearby with Joe, let's check the SW just in case.
In espionage-related news: the Vikings grew to size 2 this turn. Not quite sure why they delayed it a turn later than they could have, but maybe they have their reasons.
Four civs are still yet to grow to size 2:
- Shaka of Zulu
- Isabella of England
- Louis of Babylon
- Catherine of China
Shaka settled late, Isabella could be building two Workers (Exp), Catherine could be building a Settler (Imp). However, Louis doesn't seem to have a reason not to have grown by now. Why hasn't he got to size 2 yet? Hmm, bit of a mystery there. Either way doesn't seem like an optimal opening from him. I could be missing something though... any ideas?
Yes, that plains hill tile is pretty meh food wise. But the entire map looks that way...Maybe there's some sea food up there? The incentive for furs wasn't the happiness bonus, commerce would be a large increase to the current beaker output. Just sth to consider so I brought it up.
Also, how about switching to a warrior before you finish that worker? With Joe exploring SW and east unexplored, the situation feels a bit risky. You also have to know where to road to get the horse, maybe it won't be around. Of course, I can't tell how much time it takes to finish warrior/worker so again it's just another option to consider.
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Strategically, are you really strongly set on Stonehenge? The alternative is to focus more on early expansion. There's also the issue of great prophet pollution, the alternative is the usual GS asap from a city outside the capital with capital cottaged earlier. If you delay/skip SH you can get other supporting cites earlier which will enable the capital to build cottages sooner. Luddite indeed may have tricked you with SH and got a free chance on the Oracle. That furs tile could go along the lines of getting that wonder, giving the needed beaker boost.
Oh, I hope you don't mind me charging in with comments like this. It's just that I've been playing SGOTM for months, had a nice break from civ and then clearly abstinence crisis kicked in!
A question about the settings, why is there a 127 turns limit set for the game?
Just a quick post to inform that we got a message from luddite:
Dear Lord Parkin,
Now that I've explored the map a little more, I wanted to you about how we're going to settle it in the future. It looks as though I have a solid sea border to my west, and I assume that you have the same on your east. Both of us have an inland sea below us.
To me, the fairest way to divide up the terrain seems to be that we'll each settle around our own sea. Unfortunately, that does make the strip of land in the middle a bit awkward. No reason that we can't divide that in half also, but we need to be careful to do so in a way that won't provoke any future conflicts. If we can set up a secure border with each other, it will make it much easier for us to expand southward and claim more territory from the other civs down there.
My warrior has discovered a rather nice potential city cite down in the south. It has gold, and two silk resources. And you've already seen the spot we talked about earlier with corn, whale, and cows. What I'd like to propose is that I should settle near the corn (west of it, which won't claim the cows) and you settle down south to claim the gold. Then, after we've both hooked up the resources, I trade you the corn and you trade me the gold. Later we can trade the silk for anything that I have a duplicate of.
Since you're charismatic with (hopefully) stonehenge, happiness won't be as big a concern for you as it is for me. Likewise, I don't need health as much since I'm expansive, but you might have trouble with it on a map like this with few food resources or trees. And assuming I can get metal casting with the oracle, the gold will be worth 2 happiness for me. In this way, we'll both profit, and we can guarantee a peaceful border because we'll both be getting the resources that we want as long as we're at peace.
What do you think?
Sincerely,
Luddite
Will comment on this as well as your post tomorrow, Yamps - I'm a bit pressed for time right now.
With SGOTM 12 over, a civer needs new fun! :duel:
Besides, the current plan isn't bad - a second Worker has its advantages (as we discussed earlier), so it's not the end of the world. ![[Image: Civ4ScreenShot0794.jpg]](http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l323/LordParkin/Realms%20Beyond%20Pitboss%204/Civ4ScreenShot0794.jpg)
![[Image: Civ4ScreenShot0795.jpg]](http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l323/LordParkin/Realms%20Beyond%20Pitboss%204/Civ4ScreenShot0795.jpg)