[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[Sciz]

I noticed that Hyborem has 666 points. Fitting!

[v8mark]

how did its gain 10 pop during your turn??

The screen shots were all from the same turn right??

Doesn't Hyborem get pop from units dying or something (i.e. 'going to hell')?

[Sciz]

Nah units dying gives Hyborem Manes, which can then be converted to population (1 mane per population)

That said I'm pretty sure that's two turns in PB's post, as I can see both turn 191 and 192 in his pictures.

[Krill]

Yeah, that red 1 is hard to see.

That screen shot is just so fitting though.

[pocketbeetle]

Yeah, that red 1 is hard to see.
That screen shot is just so fitting though.

I noticed that Hyborem has 666 points. Fitting!

Dangit!
I noticed that too and meant to point it out, thankyou for the reminder! =)

how did its gain 10 pop during your turn??
The screen shots were all from the same turn right??

Doesn't Hyborem get pop from units dying or something (i.e. 'going to hell')?

Nah units dying gives Hyborem Manes, which can then be converted to population (1 mane per population)

That said I'm pretty sure that's two turns in PB's post, as I can see both turn 191 and 192 in his pictures.

I thought it was weird too.
Those screenshots are definitely from the same T192 turn, the only T191 screenshot in that post was the one of the Death node.

I agree that normally the Infernal's pop shouldn't increase during another player's turn.
The only explanation I can come up with is that the AI auto-settled some manes. *shrugs*

[Darkmantle]

Do my eyes decieve me or did the CoA + 1 pop really increase your research by 193?

I think we can safely conclude however that raiders is the single most overpowered thing I have ever seen in any game of Civ. 9 cities in 3 turns!

After you use the cultists to explore the wreck do you have other plans for them? Perhaps foundng OO temples in the former Calabim lands?

How can I say this?
I don’t know if this is common knowledge or utterly wrong, but in my opinion the game doesn’t properly calculate the combat odds when dealing with units with a high number of first strikes. Damage dealt during civ combat is based on a unit’s current health, so in a battle, a unit which takes several hits is always going to be dealing less damage (on each of its attacks) than it was at the start of the battle.
So in Elatus’ case, you not only have to take into account that a lucky roll giving the full 8 first strikes could win the battle outright, but also that even getting the minimum 4 first strikes almost certainly means the enemy unit will have taken some damage and will be dealing less damage when it returns fire.
Feel free to discuss/ correct me.

In regards to combat odds I don't think that damage a unit takes in battle affects the amount of damage it does for that battle.

This can readily be proved by looking at the combat log and seeing each unit always does the same damage at every point in the battle be it 13 or 26. So a low odds unit defeating a higher odds one will get a string of 13 with only the occasional 26 in response.

From T-Hawks adventure forty seven report

You can see that the rifle getting a hit in didn't change how much damage the cannon did subsequently.

For more on combat mechanics go to http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...#post91820

I think you right however on first strikes not being calculated properly for combat odds though. If the unit ever gets 8 first strikes it is almost certain to win no matter what, unless the strength gab is really large.

[T-hawk]

Wow, somebody reads my reports even more closely than I do.

I think you right however on first strikes not being calculated properly for combat odds though. If the unit ever gets 8 first strikes it is almost certain to win no matter what, unless the strength gab is really large.

I know the history here. In Civ 4's initial release, first strikes were calculated wrongly for the displayed combat odds. It added a flat 8% per first strike, which is correct for the first first strike at even strength, but only that case. So a unit with enough first strikes would be displayed at close to 100% but actually not have nearly that chance. This was also known as the "Drill 4 bug", because a defender with many first strikes would be chosen as the stack defender, even though another stronger unit would have a better chance at winning the battle.

The display was corrected to use proper binomial calculations in one of the patches, I think Warlords 2.08 or thereabouts. First strikes always worked correctly for combat (once everybody understood what the behavior was supposed to be) aside from possibly causing the wrong defender to be selected.

8 first strikes doesn't mean a sure win at all. Think of a strength 3 archer with that versus a 15 cavalry. The archer doesn't get 8 free hits on the cavalry. It gets 8 rounds of trying to hit where the cavalry can't hit back, but each try is only at a 3/18 chance and does little damage.

[Irgy]

In FFH though there's the different issue of the free damage that comes along with the same units and promotions as first strike ("retaliatory strike" or something). Is that damage effectively before or after combat - i.e. does it reduce the attacker's combat strength? And does the combat odds calculation account for it correctly (I doubt it accounts for it at all)?

[Darkmantle]

Wow, somebody reads my reports even more closely than I do.

I know the history here. In Civ 4's initial release, first strikes were calculated wrongly for the displayed combat odds. It added a flat 8% per first strike, which is correct for the first first strike at even strength, but only that case. So a unit with enough first strikes would be displayed at close to 100% but actually not have nearly that chance. This was also known as the "Drill 4 bug", because a defender with many first strikes would be chosen as the stack defender, even though another stronger unit would have a better chance at winning the battle.

The display was corrected to use proper binomial calculations in one of the patches, I think Warlords 2.08 or thereabouts. First strikes always worked correctly for combat (once everybody understood what the behavior was supposed to be) aside from possibly causing the wrong defender to be selected.

8 first strikes doesn't mean a sure win at all. Think of a strength 3 archer with that versus a 15 cavalry. The archer doesn't get 8 free hits on the cavalry. It gets 8 rounds of trying to hit where the cavalry can't hit back, but each try is only at a 3/18 chance and does little damage.

I don't have either Beyond the Sword or Fall from heaven so I have to get my civ kicks somehow I knew you liked to post combat logs up so I just went through the reports until I found an easy to use example.

I wasn't aware that it was only a chance at a first strike not a definite hit. I always thought it was an auto hit that would only do minimal damage if the defender had a much higher strength.

The archer to cavalry case is definitely large strength 'gab'(damn you spelling mistakes!).

Base Civ4 didn't have the combat odds so I can imagine when they added it in they took a fair number of short cuts like the 8% just to get it out on time.

[Cyneheard]

Base Civ4 didn't have the combat odds so I can imagine when they added it in they took a fair number of short cuts like the 8% just to get it out on time.

Calculating the odds isn't all that difficult; I've got an Excel sheet that does it, and it took maybe 10 hours to get the formulas to work right? All you really need is someone to explain how combat works (and they had the code in front of them), with some understanding of statistics. And most of that time was the basic system, not the first strikes, although those weren't easy.