Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[luddite]

Well thats sort of what giving a hammer discount on troops does. Later troops cost more the discount increases.

They cost more, but you also have more production later on. In fact, if the discount is applied as a bonus to production, it would actually have less of an effect later on because you'll already have other bonuses like forge and factory. If it's just a straight drop in unit costs, it still means you'll only have a flat 5% extra units at all times, which is most beneficial by going to war as early as possible.

[Krill]

Just an idea for aggresive, could you give it say +5% bonus on production of military units (actual % and which units it applied to could be tweaked obviously)

5% does near enough nothing, you need to be making 20 hpt before it shows up. 25% is a free PS civic. And it flows into the same problem TTs' idea has.

For Agg what about a free trade route with (cheap) Walls or something like that

Moving walls over from PRO would be possible, OTOH, in fitting with Castles, and obsoletes with Rifling, right? One constant TR, and one tied to walls wouldn't be a bad idea.

Just in case my suggestion was missed - maybe give the AGG leaders +5 free units similar to what vassalage does.

Basically they get 5 more units that they don't have to pay any upkeep on - that keeps the emphasis on actually being aggressive while still gaining an economic bonus. Therefore an AGG early rush doesn't cost so much without messing with trade routes etc.

The problem with that, TT, is that you have to build the units before it has an effect. It's like a visible deterrent from PBEM4: your opponents have to react before your bonus affects their game, and you have to attack them. So you have to invest heavily in your army, build your entire game on that one attack, and to benefit from...5gpt saving? You'd be better off if AGG civs didn't have to pay any unit costs or any support costs, but then we come up to a second problem: anything that we do with AGG has to be done via the DLL, so KISS applies.

The problem with AGG is that it needs a bonus that doesn't require it to interact with another civ. It doesn't have to be a great bonus, and trade routes can do that. If you consider regoarrarrs' idea, it would give AGG a bonus through out Classical, Medi and early Ren eras when warfare is more difficult from the new wall bonus, and anotehr TR for a constant bonus.

[luddite]

PB2, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM7, are just a few of the maps that have either had starting warrior kills or were close enough to have had starting warrior kills. If an aggressive player starts with 2 warriors, then there is no way to stop such a rush, which you can't know for sure will happen until it is too late, without building warriors at the start. If you do build warriors, then you will either get choked if the AGG warriors do turn up, or you just spent hammers on wasted warriors. Or you could have said screw it, built a starting worker and died on t10. Or not died and luck out and not have to spend hammers on warriors.

That is not balanced, and you can not create a balanced map that allows for some players to die on t10 and others to risk everything and get the payoff. You would in fact be turning the game start into something very similar to an ancient era AW TBG game.

Yeah, you're right. After thinking about it more I realized that giving them a free warrior is a terrible idea. We need a mechanic that improves agg for the later parts of the game, even if they don't go to war early. Agg is already a strong trait for early warfare.

[Twinkletoes89]

Well if we are looking at giving a trade route to something, surely it would be better to do it to the half price barracks they already get?

Moving walls/castles over doesn't look right to me as in theory, a protective leader builds/gets boni from defensive structures while Agg should get it from offensive structures.

[Krill]

Actually, after thinking about the extra trade route to a building idea, I kinda think it messes too much with balance as it is to really work.

[Krill]

OK, I'm going to ask for this thread to get merged with the original thread because there is some good discussion here, but this is how I see the easiest way to finish the mod:

T-hawk has kindly agreed to take a look at the DLL and see if it is possible to implement a trade route fix for AGG. If that is possible, then that can can be implemented, and we strip out Corps from the game (make them all available at future tech). Go back to the Warlords level balance there.

We'll then need a few quick MP games, or SP games with AGG civs trying to abuse the trade routes, ideally on both Pangaea and on archipelago maps. If they are balanced there, then I'm going to be looking to start a PBEM (NTT) immediately afterwards.

If the TR fix is not possible then we need to think up some economic boon for AGG to have.

[SevenSpirits]

Look at FFH, there are plenty ways you can make a military trait worthwhile.

- Free promotions that are otherwise difficult to get (commando lol)
- Extra gold from pillaging
- Reduced unit upgrade costs

Btw, +5% military unit production is likely a drawback. It gives you +1 hammer every time you put 20 hammers into a military unit all at once, but -1 hammer from rounding every time you finish a military unit with overflow that's not a multiple of 20.

[Krill]

Look at FFH, there are plenty ways you can make a military trait worthwhile.

- Free promotions that are otherwise difficult to get (commando lol)

Considered, would completely alter the way wars are fought, which is outside the scope of the mod.

- Extra gold from pillaging

Pillaging requires you to invade, to build the army...it is not an economic improvement. And is not a sound tactic in CIV, if you want to keep your units alive.

- Reduced unit upgrade costs

Evil DLL fix that is not simple.

Btw, +5% military unit production is likely a drawback. It gives you +1 hammer every time you put 20 hammers into a military unit all at once, but -1 hammer from rounding every time you finish a military unit with overflow that's not a multiple of 20.

True.

[SevenSpirits]

Those aren't suggestions, just examples of how it's possible to make good military traits without resorting to weird stuff like aggressive giving trade routes.

[novice]

If you want to give AGG a peacetime boost, maybe consider something that boosts production since
a) It's more thematic
b) No other traits boost production in general

Maybe a medieval building that reduces hurry cost (mini Kremlin) and is only available to AGG players. Say a dungeon, unlocked at Feudalism.