Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[T-hawk]

Question for the coders: is it possible to change the toroidal maintenance so it isn't so severe?

Yeah, that's easy. Got a formula you'd like to use? Just make two axis wrap the same as one axis wrap?

Another question, not something that should be implemented IMO, but is it possible to change production so that it records decimal points instead of only integers as it does now?

Possible but takes a lot of coding. The decimals for beakers and culture involve a lot of functions to calculate things like "cultureTimes100" and then divide it again. And we'd need to adjust every mouseover text and demographics screen that looks at production. The save game format would also be affected to store decimal overflow. IMO the effort is better spent elsewhere.

[T-hawk]

Create a third tag (INVISIBLE_ALL)
Add it to every unit except the spy (Invisible)
Add it to every unit except the spy (SeeInvisible)
This might have some funny flow on impacts such that subs and stealth ships cannot see normal ships

This would mean that culturally owned tiles can't see units, only other units could.

I could have a look at that cacheInterfacePlotUnits but wouldn't have time before Sunday. Next week I'm freer if you can start the PBEM a few days later.

[Krill]

Yeah, that's easy. Got a formula you'd like to use? Just make two axis wrap the same as one axis wrap?

You know where I can read up on maintenance?

Possible but takes a lot of coding. The decimals for beakers and culture involve a lot of functions to calculate things like "cultureTimes100" and then divide it again. And we'd need to adjust every mouseover text and demographics screen that looks at production. The save game format would also be affected to store decimal overflow. IMO the effort is better spent elsewhere.

Definitely agree, just something I've been meaning to find out for a month or so. Possibly worth considering the change if ever a larger redesign were to take place though, but never for something on this scale.

This would mean that culturally owned tiles can't see units, only other units could.

I could have a look at that cacheInterfacePlotUnits but wouldn't have time before Sunday. Next week I'm freer if you can start the PBEM a few days later.

Ugh, painful. No problem on waiting for a mod, that's the last thing we really need before we can play.

[Mardoc]

You know where I can read up on maintenance?

This thread on civfanatics, and particularly this post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.p...stcount=89

[T-hawk]

Mardoc beat me to it.

Short version: starting from a flat unwrapped map, maintenance is multiplied by √2 for each axis of wrapping, so 2 if both axes wrap. The formula gets there indirectly by calculating city distance as a fraction of maximum possible distance, which if you work through the geometry is reduced by √2 per wrap axis.

The idea is that an empire covering the entire map pays the same maintenance regardless of wrapping. Of course actual empires don't cover an entire map. On a cylindrical or toroidal map, what ends up happening is that actual empires pay extra distance maintenance on their early cities, to cover the fact that their later cities will pay less because more directions exist for them to be closer to the capital.

[Krill]

Thought there would be more to it than that.

Probably best to just make Toroidal maps work like Cylindrical maps, simple, straightforward...right?

[SevenSpirits]

This spy debate seems absurd. In the real world, seeing if another power was going to attack you would be the main freaking point of spies. If you don't want people to be able to detect impending attacks, adding in a spy unit has got to be the most counterproductive idea possible. The fact that there is/was under consideration a unit called a "spy" which has the worst sight range of any unit is just hilarious.

Easiest solution is just to write off active espionage. Next easiest (but possibly quite undesirable) is to accept that spies might assist in scouting out attacks but make it harder. E.g. make spies cost 150h and have a national unit limit like missionaries, and maybe be visible to enemy spies (but not attackable). Hardest to implement would be to move the active espionage missions directly to the espionage screen (and lose the non-city one(s)).

[Cyneheard]

This spy debate seems absurd. In the real world, seeing if another power was going to attack you would be the main freaking point of spies. If you don't want people to be able to detect impending attacks, adding in a spy unit has got to be the most counterproductive idea possible. The fact that there is/was under consideration a unit called a "spy" which has the worst sight range of any unit is just hilarious.

Easiest solution is just to write off active espionage. Next easiest (but possibly quite undesirable) is to accept that spies might assist in scouting out attacks but make it harder. E.g. make spies cost 150h and have a national unit limit like missionaries, and maybe be visible to enemy spies (but not attackable). Hardest to implement would be to move the active espionage missions directly to the espionage screen (and lose the non-city one(s)).

1) Realism does not trump other concerns, like playability. It's nice, and I try to protect realism where possible, but it's not the goal; that's what the Rhye's mod and its modmods work heavily on.
2) If we write off active espionage, then we'd might as well not have espionage at all; getting graphs visibility is annoying, but fine if there is more to the espionage system, and research visibility by itself isn't worth all the tedium. But we don't want to force No Espionage on everyone.

Looking at your other proposals, they fail this test:
If your proposal makes Ruff less able to do espionage than the Secretive proposal, then it's a non-starter; my goal is to keep the espionage economy, and the ability to use espionage for its interesting aspects, while limiting the power of the spy as the sentry on your borders, because the spy sentry is unstoppable, and even worse, the attacking player will never know that he's even been noticed.

On map maintenance: I would support making toroidal maps function like cylindrical ones for maintenance.

[Twinkletoes89]

Maybe just make spies more costly to build. Yes you can build a large spy sentry net but if you spend all your hammers on them instead of actual military units you can't stop most of what you see.

[Ruff_Hi]

I'd be happy with a normal spy (normal visibility) that cannot see units. Having a blind spy just means more micro and someone above argued against micro as the answer to one of my suggestions ... so I get to use the same knive to cut the other way :neenernee