Like a hot wind Varn Gosam of the Malakim [SPOILERS]

[Thoth]

Mardoc founded CoE last turn and the RNG decided to be a bit of an asshat:

Very funny. Ha ha.

A few city shots from the Golden Age:

GLT:

I cash rushed the Public Baths on turn 123 which will cover the loss of happiness from switching into Consuption from Religion next turn. It also means I'll finish the National Epic next turn thanks to the overflow.

Golden Tipi:

I cash rushed the settler on turn 123 which gets me the city one turn faster and allows me to convert all of that excess food into overflow hammers to be used towards a Money Changer (at a 2:1 ratio thanks to Financial)

Golden Shack:

Pretty decent output for a size 8 city with minimal infra.

Finished up currency at eot 123. I've got hunting dialed up next (1 turn) but I may change that depending on diplo with WK and Nyktorion.

Border regions:

The Northeast:

The desert shrine gets my 3rd border pop on turn 129 in case NAP negotiations with Nyktorion break down. (it's currently looking like we'll have a NAP until t 150 but I haven't signed yet. See follow up diplo post for details)

The Southeast:

The archery range in Golden Hut is so that I can draft out some archers once I'm back into Military State. It will be hurried with a Heroic Epic built SoK.

Eastern Elfland:

It looks like he's got a least one (probably two) high culture coastal cities. Likely his capital and holy cities.

Nyktorion finished up research on Optics on turn 122....not sure if he's looking for a counter to Cultists (there are two on his borders) or is trying to circumnavigate on a flat map. (one of my Cultists reached the Western edge of the map on turn 123, confirming my earlier analysis)

Diplo update to follow.

[Thoth]

We've signed a NAP until eot 170 and are currently discussing ways to get the most out of the Undercouncil.

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi Mardoc,

Congrats on your own founding of CoE.

I've had a few ideas about the undercouncil that you might find to our mutual benefit.


I can hit Deception and swap to the Undercouncil by turn 134 (maybe 135/136 at the latest). I can't do it any earlier as I have some civic swaps planned for t124, but once there are two people in Undercouncil some interesting possibilites crop up.

Obviously having access to smugglers ports would be a huge boon to your seafaring nation. I'm interested in the GS and the cheap Gambling Houses (there should really be a "cheap prostitutes" resolution as well.....but so it goes. ).

Can we work out a deal for voting ourselves some nice goodies?

I'd offer to throw in a "no compete" for GG but it wouldn't be worth much as I don't think I get free access to CoE as the second finisher.

Thoth.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]I would be happy to work with you to gain some goodies. I haven't decided precisely when I'll revolt, but I ought to manage before T134.

I definitely want at least all of Secret Codes, Gambling Ring, Smuggling Ring, and Slave Trade. In terms of the order; probably it makes sense to do Secret Codes first, then Slaves, Smuggling, and Gambling. Nightwatch could also be worth doing, but lower priority. Do you know the precise mechanics? How often do we get to vote, how much money each resolution costs, etc? I would hate to miss an opportunity because I forgot to save up for it.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]I'm not sure on the exact mechanics of the UnderCouncil. I think the votes happen every 10 turns but that's a WAG so don't count on it being accurate. I'll put a request out to my lurkers and see if any of them can provide details. In the meantime I'm aiming to keep ~200g on hand to deal with events/resolutions.

I hadn't really considered slaves, are they any good? I'd rate them lower priority than 27h gambling houses, but I may well be missing something.

Thoth.

(btw: the RNG is an asshat. See attached screenie from my start of t122)

[/COLOR]

(I sent him the screenshot of "If I was running CoE I'd have gotten a free GA" event.)

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Slaves - well, I believe it's 30 gold to buy one, and he's either a half-efficiency worker or 10 hammers. Or, if you have a source of slaves, you can sell them for 10 gold. But I hadn't realized just how much Undercouncil saves on Gambling Houses, either. Quadruples?!?

I just had one of those for Leaves! Still, it could be worse, could be those damn goblins.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Gambling ring reduces the cost of Gambling houses by 75%. Very nice.

Slaves don't sound all that good to me, half speed workers (at full support costs) aren't very appealing. 30g-->10h isn't any better than cash rushing. I have no objection to enabling slave trade but I think we'll get more millage out of smugglers ports and gambling rings. How about Secret Codes-->Smuggling ring-->Gambling Ring and then slave trade?

Yeah, those goblins are annoying. The one saving grace about having Nature as a palace mana is being immune to that event.

Thoth.[/COLOR]

Game Mechanics Questions for Lurkers:

How often are Undercouncil Votes held on Quick speed?
How much does it cost for each of the resolutions?
Are there any benefits to the Slave Trade besides being able to buy/sell slaves? 3g/h isn't any better than cash rushing (except for Wonders).
Is there a limit on how many slaves you can buy in a single turn?

[Thoth]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi Nyktorion,

I don't mean to pressure you, but while you are deliberating on which side of the fence to sit on, there have been some recent developments that may affect your choice.

Mardoc and I have concluded a long running NAP, so WK's notion of a 4x1 dogpile isn't going to work.

I'll have both the tech and the units to defeat a 3x1 dogpile on the board by t130, let alone t135.

I'm not looking to expand into your area (Marching Trees are a very fine deterrent) but I will be expanding my military forces as a deterrent to others (ie WK/Irgy) in the near future.



If I tech Cartography, would you be interested in an Open Borders agreement? I would ask for a "no scouting" clause in such an agreement, but the trade routes would be welcome.
(as an aside: Your southern Hunter is about to be trapped by my next city's borders. I am willing to make an exception to the "no scouting" clause in order to let it escape). If you have designs on The Pact of the Nilihorn, I'm willing to sign a "no compete" agreement.

Thoth. [/COLOR]

[COLOR="SeaGreen"]Thanks for your updates; while my I'm not quite finished on my decision yet, I'm already getting a quite good idea on it. Anyway, you have made me a bit curious about the "tech and troops" you are mentioning, which would both work to defeat a possible dogpile, or in an alpha strike against WarriorKnight (at least in the foreign advisor tech screen, I'm just noticing the techs for swords, priests, adepts, archers, and horsemen yet, but I'd guess something is still in the pipeline there...)

Concerning open borders: right now, my current OB agreements suffice to make all of my trade routes lucrative, and I think my hunter is having a great view from his current position. However, I'm planning to get Trade not too far from now, which will open up additional trade route slots in my cities to be filled; depending on how these routes turn out, I might be qite happy about the added opportunity of trade routes with your cities (of course, I'd be happy with a no scouting clause), then.

best regards,
Nyktorion[/COLOR]

That last paragraph pissed me off. "I'm fine with a no scouting clause, but in the meantime I'm going to scout you anyway"

[COLOR="Yellow"]Since you have already demonstrated your willingness to share map information with hostile third parties, I must insist that you remove your hunter from my borders immediately. If you fail to do so I will withdraw my offer of a NAP and kill it when our current NAP expires.

Thoth.[/COLOR]

A bit harsh perhaps. I certainly appreciated the intel he was sending me during the Bannor war, but I also took note of the fact that he was pretending to be Mr. Yellow's friend at the same time. No way in hell am I letting him get away with the same stunt against me.

[COLOR="SeaGreen"]Fair enough. If you have any specific directions for him to help a speedy getaway from the relevant territory, he will be happy to follow them.

-- Nyktorion[/COLOR]

He spotted my second Cultist off his coast at about the time he sent that email.

[COLOR="Yellow"]Thank you for your co-operation.

If you follow the road south east around the Pristin Pass and then walk onto the plains hill SE of the scrubs tile you'll be able to find the coast to the SE of that and exit my territory before my borders pop.

I've accepted the silk/gold trade in game in anticipation of the canceling of the cotton/gold trade.

Thoth.

[/COLOR]

During his turn he followed my directions.

[COLOR="SeaGreen"]Hi Thoth,

as I have said, I spent the last turns watching the global politics, and contemplating my possible roles in a potential conflict between you and WarriorKnight. Finally, I have come to the conclusion that the best move for me would just be not to take military action on either side in it.

Thus, I am happy to say that I accept your NAP extension offer until T150, and hereby sign it. However, I'd rather like to also stay on good terms with the other civs for now, so I decline your proposal of a joint strike against WarriorKnight.

best regards,
Nyktorion[/COLOR]

Good enough for me. So long as he moves his hunter out of my lands, I'll sign.

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi Nyktorion,

That would be fine by me, although I'm going to hold off on signing the deal until your hunter has exited my eastern borders. If you move him 1NE (onto the scrubs tile) and then 1E (onto the desert tile that Kang is standing on) you'll get pushed out once I found the city (and get a tile or two of free movement as a bonus. )

Thoth.[/COLOR]

If he moves as I ask, he'll get bounced out of my borders and I'll ink the NAP.

[Thoth]

With two of my borders secure, I'm thinking that some nice builder turns should put me into a winning position so it's time to see if WK is willing to extend our NAP or if I need to go heavy military and give him a bit of a thumping.

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi WarriorKnight,

As our current NAP is getting close to expiring, I'm wondering if you have any interest in extending it?

I would like to extend the NAP until eot 160 if that is acceptable to you. I would also be prepared to consider other timeframes if you would prefer.

Should we sign a NAP I could provide some Cultist "fire support" to enable you to take that barb city next to the Tomb of Succellus easily and cheaply.

Thoth.[/COLOR]

The barb city in question is on a hill guarded by a pair of defense 4 gobbo archers. It will cost him a bit to take it using conventional forces and nothing to take it after a pair of tsunamis. I'm willing to throw in a bit of incentive to resign our NAP (especially as it costs me absolutely nothing).

If he's willing to extend our NAP, fine. If not, I'm currently at about 2x his power rating and can easily double or triple my available forces before our current NAP expires. Annexing some of his border cities is an acceptable alternative.

Either way, I'm going to be beefing up my forces in case of a close Hyborem spawn or an long range invasion from Irgy (currently at the bottom of the Powergraph)

[Thoth]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Hi Thoth

I would be happy to extend our NAP. Your suggestion until the end of T160 is fine with me.

Some cultist support taking the barb city would be very nice. Would you be able to Tsunami the barb city ASAP? I should be able to handle it after that.

Regards,
WarriorKnight[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi Wk,

Consider a NAP until EOT 160 between the Malakim and Elohim empires signed by the Malakim.

I'll have a Cultist in position to begin Tsunamis by turn 125.

Thoth. [/COLOR]

Well now. It's looking like I'm going to get some happy builder turns after all.

NAPs:

Mardoc: until eot 170
WarriorKnight: until eot 160 (currently awaiting his signature)
Nyktorion: until eot 150 (currently awaiting my signature)

Either I was just being paranoid about the possibility of a dogpile, or the CoW never really got off the ground. There are certain advantages to having the largest military in the world.

[Thoth]

Settled Golden Bunkhous (which bounced Nyktorion's hunter out of my territory for good, I then inked the NAP extension to eot150), revolted to Consumption, Arete and Conquest.

Since it's looking like there will be peace in our time, I've readjusted my tech path slightly and dialed up the research slider to 80% (+7gpt, 424 bpt).

As it turned out, I had a Cultist in position to Tsunami the barb city near ToS so I went ahead and gave it's inhabitants a bit of wave action. There is also a stack of 4 barb axes just outside the city (this is likely the reason WK was so hot to get me to soak down the city ). I'll hit them again next turn and possibly farm an xp or two from them.

I've got two adepts completed and should have ~6 water 1 adepts by the time my mana deal with Mardoc expires. I'll build a few more to improve mana nodes and cast a few Inspiration spells (and Wall of Stone once I shrine RoK).

I finished off the National Epic at end of turn, next GP due t127 (slightly over 50% odds for a Great Prophet). I should be able to squeeze another GP out of Golden Hut by ~t136/137 before GLT produces it's next GP. Mixed gene pool on all of them, but I can make use out of any sort of GP right now.

Things are definitely looking good at the moment.

[Thoth]

Thoth Hi! I've run into a minor problem with FFHIII. The barbs move after me and before you, so their units heal IBT. I'll have a second cultist ready to flatline the defenders in the ToS barb city by t126, in the meantime I will make sure that the axe stack keeps it's head down.
9:16 PM WarriorKnight: hi
9:17 PM yeah, i figured out that the barbs move between us, but they cant heal off the damage in 1 turn anyway
9:18 PM Thoth Depends on my dice rolls. I hit the two defenders for less than 20% damage last turn, so they're at full health again. The axes seem to have stopped moving and are trying to heal.
9:19 PM WarriorKnight: ive killed 2 of the axes and the rest of my army is moving to finish the rest next turn
but anyway, thanks for the Tsunami support
9:20 PM Thoth NP. If you want some more, I can provide it, but if your units are on a coastal tile within 2 tiles I won't be able to without the game DOWing.
9:22 PM WarriorKnight: well, I'm not going to move to the tile 1W of the city, so if you move south then you wont be in range of my units
6 minutes
9:29 PM Thoth Ok. can do. If I move SE I can damage the city without touching the tile with the axe stack.

A bit of progress, but he still doesn't seem very friendly.....something to do with the demographics I'm sure.

[Thoth]

TLDR version:

Read it . :mad:

Laziness is for Yanks and other disreputable types.....

Thoth It looks like there will be peace in our time.
8:51 PM The CoW seems to have completely fallen apart.
8:53 PM Mardoc: there was a CoW? Or you mean in PBEM2?
8:54 PM Did I not notice something like Nyktorion declaring on WarriorKnight?
8:55 PM Thoth No FFH pbem III. I don't know for certain that there was an attempt to form one, but in every other game I've read up on, someone has tried to organise a dogpile.
AFAIK, Nyktorion is trying to get his economy up to speed and isn't interested in DOWing anyone right now.
8:56 PM WK was the obvious candidate to organize the dogpile, but he almost fell over himself in his hurry to extend our NAP once I resigned with you and Nyktorion.
8:57 PM Mardoc: I think that's the general consensus; admittedly your golden age makes me jealous, but I still think I've got a chance to outexpand you
Thoth I may have been a bit paranoid about the dogpile possibility, but better to be paranoid and alive than complacent and fighting off a 3vs1.
Mardoc: So did you manage to get everyone staggered NAP's again?
Thoth Yep.
8:58 PM t150 with nyk, t 160 with Wk, t170 with you. I'm keeping my hands untied with Irgy in case I spot a tasty coastal AV city to burn.
8:59 PM i suspect Nyk will be gunning for me with Death II mages come t150. I used a bit of "gunboat" diplomacy to help get the NAP.
Mardoc: Hmm. Maybe next time I should include an MDP exception
9:00 PM Don't really want to see you running over another civ, either
Thoth I don't have any offensives planned at the moment (at least not any more)
OTOH, if negotiations had failed.....
9:01 PM Mardoc: Yes, but you'd say that anyway, wouldn't you?
Diplo's not quite as bad as werewolf, but there's a bit of second-guessing
Thoth Depends on weather or not a confidentiality agreement was in place.
9:02 PM Yeah, I'm not entirely happy with the way I've done my diplo this game, but the results so far have been ok.
Mardoc: I generally like knowing secrets enough to promise I won't spread them around
Will keep this chat to myself if you want to spill something
9:03 PM Thoth I'll keep any confidentiality agreements I make, and won't ask anyone else to break one.
Mardoc: Of course, do keep that in mind in any future fishing attempts, I won't spill anyone else's secrets either
Thoth Hmmmm. No really cunning plans in the works other than building lots of nice shiny things.

9:04 PM I didn't really expect you to comment one way or the other as to weather or not a CoW attempt had been made.
Shiny things=Iron chariots.

9:06 PM Mardoc: gotta say that keeping an army does give you more options
especially if you're concerned about invasions
6 minutes
9:12 PM Thoth Indeed. Having a fat GNP is an invitation to invasion if you don't have a decent army.
"If you would have peace, then be thou prepared for war"
9:13 PM
9:14 PM Mardoc: of course, if you would have war, you should probably be prepared for war too
9:16 PM Thoth That too. But it goes against my builder nature. War is sometimes necessary, but it's often counter productive.
9:17 PM Mardoc: yeah, you just have to look at Mist's game to see that
I think he played darn near the perfect rush (although I'd have built more warriors and less workers)
9:18 PM and yet...what did it really buy him?
9:19 PM Thoth Agreed. Which goes back to my earlier comments about weather you need a rush to succeed (which he did) or if you simply need to make your opponent keep his head down while you choke him.
9:20 PM Mardoc: true - if you can still expand at almost the non-war rate, then a choke buys you much
9:21 PM although it does buy the neighbor of your neighbor almost as much
9:22 PM Thoth It's the main weakness of the "rush civs". You pretty much have to rush someone successfully, and even if you do, someone else may well be pulling ahead and/or settling the land your victim would otherwise have settled.
Mardoc: on a duel map, though, they can be godly
9:23 PM or, well, if we had tech trading on, and extortion was the name of the game
If Mist had succeeded at extorting Sciz instead of having to fight, it might still have worked out for him
Thoth Oh yes. But duel games are a different kettle of fish entirely.
9:24 PM Tech trading....that opens up some interesting possibilities, but from what I've seen in other games it really warps the diplo
9:25 PM Mardoc: that's true. When you can produce 4-5X your GNP, equivalently, by arranging appropriate trades, there's no way to compete without trading
9:28 PM Thoth absolutely. You either get into a decent trading bloc, or you fall hopelessly behind. Some folks might like that sort of thing, but I'd rather play a game where Civ skills matter. If you can simply trade your way into parity or the lead it doesn't matter as much if your Civ skills are sub-par.
9:29 PM (of course, then there's Krill)
9:30 PM Mardoc: yeah, if I want a game that's mainly about talking, forming alliances, convincing people I'm on their team...I can always sign up for another Werewolf
9:31 PM not much point in killing a hundred hours in game when it'll turn out irrelevant anyway
Thoth or an online game of Diplomacy. If I wanted that sort of game, I'd play it. I like the micro planning that goes with a good game of Civ.
9:32 PM Setting up a sandbox and trying out different approaches can be fun (at least for us OCD types)
9:33 PM Mardoc: One of these days I'll have to try that. I still want to figure out worldbuilder so I can help with people's maps
9:34 PM but, well, I'm sure I've still got a lot to learn about micro
9:37 PM One of these games I'm going to have to go back to globally lurking so I can improve my own gamplay
but that muzzle is so hard to put on anymore
5 minutes
9:43 PM Thoth I find the opposite....when I'm ded lurking /playing a game it's tough not to click on all those threads with unread posts to see what is going on. I'll find out eventually, but it's hard not knowing.
Are there any FFH games you're not playing in/ded lurking?
9:45 PM Mardoc: FFH 2
and...that's it
9:46 PM well, and FFH 1 if we ever find out the ending
Thoth wowsers. That's a lot of games at once.
I'm finding it hard enough to keep up with one (two once ffh vii gets rolling)
9:47 PM Mardoc: being a dedlurker is a lot easier than playing, even if you go into details
and honestly, reading one thread takes less time than reading 7-8
9:48 PM I'm only playing in two, and I have Irgy as my partner there, so I'm really only playing equivalently 2 games, total
Thoth Yeah, less time on diplo and as you say only reading one thread. But doing things like sandboxing and C&D take a lot of time.
9:49 PM Mardoc: true, although even there, when you have a partner to talk things out with and do half the work, it helps
9:50 PM C&D in particular goes much more smoothly when you have a competent partner to talk it out with
Thoth It does, but then there is the time you spend chatting with your partner.
Mardoc: to point out the obvious stuff that you weren't considering
Thoth And yes, C&D is easier if someone helps you out.
When I took back over from Sciz, I spent most of a Sunday trying to figure out what Mr. Yellow had been up to.
9:51 PM Mardoc: And...sadly...it's much less of a time investment when you're looking at ~3 turns/week for the game instead of turn/day
Thoth Sciz hadn't been doing much in the way of C&D. I damn near went cross eyed peering at graphs.
Mardoc: which is the case in PBEM 11, FFH 6, for instance
9:52 PM that's the best thing about this group in PBEM3, we're all quite good at averaging a turn/day pace
Thoth Sadly so. I'm very happy with the turn pace we've managed to keep up with in our game. I'd gladly play with the same set of players again
hehe. xpost.
9:53 PM Mardoc: yes, in whole or in part. While I'm getting skeptical about joining games with Amelia in them, solely due to her unreliable internet
maybe if she had a partner
9:55 PM Thoth AFAIK, her internet problems aren't entirely her fault....didn't she get hit with an earthquake a few months ago? but still.....in the interests of keeping a game going I'd rather have someone else. (like, say the FFH III crowd)
9:56 PM Mardoc: AFAIK, they're mostly not her fault, they're the best option she has living where she is
just that Indonesia still has a ways to go to catch up to US/Europe in reliability
9:57 PM but, well, the difference between 'absolutely will be there during your timeslot, and sometimes out of it' and 'I'll only miss it sometimes' still works out to a major difference in pace when you're working with 6+ people
9:58 PM on the subject of dedlurking - that's a good reason for me to work on my worldbuilder skills
then I can still feel involved, but have an ironclad reason for myself why i can't spend the time
8 minutes
10:07 PM Thoth Agreed wrt to reliability...it's nice to count on my turn showing up once per day (barring any diplo drama). And it's really nice to have a set of people from around the world who do tend to play their turns on time.
10:08 PM I'm aiming to brush up on my WB skills for ffh vii.....something else to spend my time on without having too much invested. After all, I'm just a ded lurker in that game....or a least I will be once a spoiler thread gets set up.
10:09 PM Mardoc: Um, really? While Gaspar and I are up to 27 posts already?
10:10 PM if that's the kind of investment Rawkking has in mind, maybe you won't have that much available yourself
Thoth Yeah. Got a PM last night about possible thread titles, (to which I responded with a few) but no thread yet. sigh
10:12 PM Yeah, I'm not all that hopeful at the moment....I was looking forward to the game, but if Rawkking isn't willing to put in the effort.....I hope it's just an artifact of it being the weekend.
Mardoc: Maybe I'll be able to beat you in threadspam in one thread, at least
Thoth Not much point in trying to help someone who won't help themselves.
10:13 PM Mardoc: it could be weekend. hopefully.
Thoth Hehe. So far you've got me in ffh vii....but that's not my fault.

Mardoc: don't want him too disinterested or I'll have yet another game to complain about the pace in
you guys have really spoiled me there
Thoth He's got a good leader, I'm hoping he stays interested.
10:14 PM Mardoc: you ended up with Grigori, right?
Thoth Hippus. With the Fin/exp leader
Mardoc: oh, that was you
Thoth Two fine traits.
10:15 PM Mardoc: probably not letting too much slip when I say that's one of the strong contenders in our opinion
Thoth I hope so, but it depends on the player, not the leader or the ded lurkers.
10:16 PM Mardoc: yes
and he's new to RB, so there's not much to judge him by either way
10:17 PM Thoth Well, I was new (aside from a few years lurking) to RB when I started this game, so hopefully he'll come through.
10:18 PM Rhoanna is an awesome leader if he plays to her strengths....
10:19 PM Mardoc: yes indeedy
7 minutes
10:26 PM Thoth Oh, and btw: I still haven't got a response from my lurkers about Undercouncil mechanics. (those damn slackers)
10:27 PM Though I did note on one of my trips through the civilopedia that Good civs can't join the Undercouncil so I'm not aiming to convert to Order any time soon.
10:30 PM Mardoc: oh, I thought that was obvious
Evil can't join Overcouncil either
10:31 PM Thoth It's obvious once you take a look at it....I've never actually played around with the undercouncil :shaThoth
Mardoc: that choice is one of the only compensations Neutral civs get for not being able to get an almost free Great Prophet
10:32 PM Thoth Murphy's law says that anytime I play a Neutral leader I will see the "buy a GP for 52 g event" and that every time I play an Evil/Good leader....I won't...seems to be holding true so far this game.
10:33 PM Mardoc: and no matter which religion you're in, you won't be eligible for that golden age
10:35 PM Thoth hehe. Yeah I noticed. The thing that got to me about the "If you were running CoE you'd get a GA" event was the timing....it happened the same turn you founded CoE. The RNG couldn't have been saying "FUCK YOU" any louder.
10:36 PM Mardoc: to both of us
Thoth Indeed.
10:38 PM The bitch about being Spiritual with multiple religions is that you know that the turn after you swap religions, you'll get the event for the religion you just swapped out of. (yes, it has happened to me....not this game yet, but it's just a matter of time.)
10:39 PM Mardoc: well, of course
but only if you actually switch
if you talk yourself out of it, then it'll be the potential new one instead
10 minutes
10:50 PM Thoth Yeah it seems to work that way. So I tend to content myself with just grabbing the toys that come with each religion and not worrying about events too much.
10:51 PM The odd thing about Spiritual....it often doesn't pay to grab the religious heroes if you want to maximize the trait.
10:52 PM Mardoc: yeah, I can see that. What's the point in a 10 XP hero, compared to having an army that's Blessed, with excellent guaranteed collateral and throwaway tigers?
the latter will kill the hero anyway
10:55 PM Thoth Well, there is the beaker investment to consider. But on the whole I agree. Especially once you consider the power of 16h bronze warriors, with +1 st thanks to bless and + 20% thanks to enchanted blade and +10% thanks to SoF.....WK's power rating sucks, but it's a damn sight better than it looks at first glance.
10:56 PM Mardoc: yes, one can't use Power as anything but a rough guide
10:57 PM Thoth Throwaway Tigers are hard countered by Subdue animal Rangers....a couple of those and "All your tigers are belong to us"
Mardoc: oh, sure, if you're willing to stack up where the mages can get at you
especially since Power doesn't take metal into account, it's very general
10:58 PM Thoth Mages are a pita.....that's what assassins are for.
Yeah, power graphs can be very misleading when it comes to estimating actual combat strength.
10:59 PM Mardoc: yeah, ultimately it comes down to bring a balanced army, or scout your enemy and exploit their weakness
there's always a counter
Thoth A bit of both I suspect. "Know thy enemy" seems appropriate.
11:00 PM Initiative is vital in FFH
11:01 PM Mardoc: given how painless collateral can be, yes
Thoth If you let your army get hit with ranged collateral you're in for some trouble....hit your enemy for some collateral and you're golden.
11:02 PM Mardoc: if there were a chance for mages to die like catapults, I don't think it would quite as vital
but still generally true
Thoth Agreed, though cats in FFH are pretty awesome given their base retreat chance.....the only problem is actually getting them on target.
11:04 PM Without the ability to get hasted, cats are damn slow even in defence mode. 3 move mounted units vs 2 move (assuming roads) cats....it can get ugly fast.
11:05 PM Mardoc: can cats take the Mobility promotion?
that would partially make up for it (although still on defense only)
(well, or Raiders)
11:06 PM Thoth AFIK, cats can't take Mobility nor are they affected by Raiders. So no easy movement in enemy territory and no easy moves in your own.
11:07 PM They're fine for early/mid game defence, but junk after that.
11:08 PM Mardoc: ah, I had forgotten that they don't get Raider-boosted eitehr
11:09 PM I can think of circumstances where you could make them work; just not of circumstances where you wouldn't rather have a mage or priest
11:10 PM Thoth Like playing the Kzad? They're about the only civ that can make cats work early....and even then they're probably better off with Ritualists...
11:11 PM Mardoc: well, or if you're performing a successful pillage war/choke, where you pretty much have control of the countryside, you have time to bring in Cats
11:12 PM they provide a threat that can't be ignored, so can take you from choking to conquering
11:13 PM say, if you were playing Tasunke, and were able to threaten enough cities simultaneously that your opponent can't put together a stack of doom
11:14 PM but still, I'd rather have a Fire Mage
11:17 PM anyway, it's bedtime for me
so I'll ttyl
11:20 PM Thoth g'night. Nice chatting with you again.

[Thoth]

*rude comments about Krill removed*

[Thoth]

Since there hasn't been a good drunken NSFW post in awhile.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBAbH_ZCz...dded#at=75