Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[NobleHelium]

Re: the moves, I think you're discounting that pre-construction, crossing that river will take 1 of the settlers moves regardless of him moving onto forest, road, or stairway to heaven. The road in and of itself is not why I'm going Elder Council first, but that it can occupy a bored worker AND give me trade routes the turn the new site is settled seems reason enough to me to go ahead with it. It also has the side benefit of having him in place to improve the RoP site as soon as it is settled.

Okay, I see. I didn't know the exact specifics of the elven forest move bonus. About the trade routes though, I'm quite sure that a road will not be required. The river that the capital is on is actually part of the same trade network as the river that runs westward to the sea, because they border the same tile (the Tomb of Sucellus tile). Trade routes are calculated per tile and not per edge, so two rivers bordering the same tile actually connects them in terms of trade networks. And we have Fishing which enables river trade routes outside borders. But yeah, the EC and sage should give us much more commerce than the second city does, so that should be priority.

[Azoth]

By the by, as I start thinking about the full T100 plan, can I get opinions on post-Education tech plan? Animal Husbandry makes the most sense, but I'm loath to delay Way of the Forests any longer than necessary. Not only is it crucial to my economy to get a few Ancient Forests up, not only is it great for defensive purposes, but Sheaim is so close that we can seriously open the option of using March of the Trees on offense, particularly if we settle pink.

I think the ideal tech plan for maximizing commerce goes Education --> Calendar --> Festivals ---> Hunting ---> Way of the Forests. Education for cottages; Calendar for fast growth from Agrarian farms and +1 happy from cotton; Festivals for another +1 happy from half price Carnivals plus +3 gold from Markets offsetting expansion costs; then straight to religion. I see Animal Husbandry as a distraction: it's an expensive detour which nets you all of two pastures, depending on where city #3 goes. Food should come from farms.

On the other hand, an offensive March of the Trees sounds like a great idea. Treants get Woodsman II for free, which lets them double-move through jungle. They could easily wipe out the Sheaim all by themselves.

[Mardoc]

I do want to say before Mardoc gets here (Mardoc I've discovered is the conservative member of the Elven Council.) This plan scares the hell out of me. I'm tying up a ridiculous amount of turns to a building, running 1 worker for roughly ever, and trying to hold off FFH2 barbs and god knows what else comes boiling out of the fog with 4 warriors, one of whom is currently rocking a rusted club (explain that.) So there's a tremendous amount of risk associated with it. While 4 warriors is plenty to hold off a Lizardman/Skeleton invasion, once those fellas get spread out as we work on the trans-elven road and such, catching a Lizard or Griffon or whatever in the wrong spot could be devastating.

You young whippersnapper, never seen a rusted club?




Seriously, although I don't have an objection to going directly for Elder Council and settler, I would change some details. Like this massive road you're planning to build to duplicate what we can get with the forest river those friendly natives taught us to use. When you could instead be farming the forest for a slight hit to commerce, but a dramatic boost to the settler's production. Really - once the Elder Council is up, it'll be a quarter of our empire's total science; more if you back off from commerce tiles to farmed forests. We can always later pave over the farms with houses (I think this is called 'suburbia').

But the other piece is that farmed forests will be excellent tiles for worker spam, too, which we're going to need a lot of. Really, we're getting into the phase where we'll want to do a lot more building than commerce. Once we have Way of the Forest, we're going to want a dozen settlers, 2-3 dozen workers, 2-3 dozen warriors - and new techs will be much lower priority - we'll want Priesthood and war tech, but settler spam followed by cottaged forests everywhere can get that for us, and do so a lot better than working grass hills just cause they're next to the river

Also, don't get married to the plan. The biggest reason I'm ok with it is that we can, especially post-God King, take a break for a 2 or 3 turn warrior if something comes up. Assuming that you're willing to take that break when it becomes necessary. I think the Pacifism hammer penalty is ok for an emergency-only warrior, even though it does knock us to 3 turn warriors instead of 2 turns warriors.

By the by, as I start thinking about the full T100 plan, can I get opinions on post-Education tech plan? Animal Husbandry makes the most sense, but I'm loath to delay Way of the Forests any longer than necessary. Not only is it crucial to my economy to get a few Ancient Forests up, not only is it great for defensive purposes, but Sheaim is so close that we can seriously open the option of using March of the Trees on offense, particularly if we settle pink.

Really it'll depend on city 3. AH isn't worth doing for just a plains Cow, in my opinion, not when we could instead be rushing toward ancient forests everywhere. It might maybe be worth doing for a grass pig, though. (although I note that our grass pig sites have a lot of forest around, too...).

But all in all - the elven economy is extremely straightforward - we want cottaged forests everywhere. And that's about it. Maybe once in a while, mix things up with a mine or a farm or lumbermill, for a GPP city or a wonder city. So therefore we want workers and Priests of Leaves everywhere, post Education. Anything else is low priority, maybe happiness and war tech

And of course it would get us closer to this:


So, for a TL:DR? I'm ok with the plan, so long as you keep flexible and are willing to spam workers for a while starting T45.

[Gaspar]

Okay, I see. I didn't know the exact specifics of the elven forest move bonus. About the trade routes though, I'm quite sure that a road will not be required. The river that the capital is on is actually part of the same trade network as the river that runs westward to the sea, because they border the same tile (the Tomb of Sucellus tile). Trade routes are calculated per tile and not per edge, so two rivers bordering the same tile actually connects them in terms of trade networks. And we have Fishing which enables river trade routes outside borders. But yeah, the EC and sage should give us much more commerce than the second city does, so that should be priority.

Fair enough on the trade route stuff, I didn't fully understand how that worked.

I think the ideal tech plan for maximizing commerce goes Education --> Calendar --> Festivals ---> Hunting ---> Way of the Forests. Education for cottages; Calendar for fast growth from Agrarian farms and +1 happy from cotton; Festivals for another +1 happy from half price Carnivals plus +3 gold from Markets offsetting expansion costs; then straight to religion. I see Animal Husbandry as a distraction: it's an expensive detour which nets you all of two pastures, depending on where city #3 goes. Food should come from farms.

On the other hand, an offensive March of the Trees sounds like a great idea. Treants get Woodsman II for free, which lets them double-move through jungle. They could easily wipe out the Sheaim all by themselves.

Interesting sticking Festivals in before religion. If we did intend to attack Sheaim with Treants it'd almost be better to not get WotF too early, to not waste as much Ancient Forestage when we fired the world spell. Its a thought.

Seriously, although I don't have an objection to going directly for Elder Council and settler, I would change some details. Like this massive road you're planning to build to duplicate what we can get with the forest river those friendly natives taught us to use. When you could instead be farming the forest for a slight hit to commerce, but a dramatic boost to the settler's production. Really - once the Elder Council is up, it'll be a quarter of our empire's total science; more if you back off from commerce tiles to farmed forests. We can always later pave over the farms with houses (I think this is called 'suburbia').

I suppose this is just the BTS player in me, wanting to ensure I have supply lines should the need arise, hence the road. But I think you all have made the point that I might be better off just spamming farms everywhere, so I suppose that's what we'll do. Honestly, farm in a forest with a slow-ass Elven worker is going to take so long, we'll only get like 3 of them in before Education, but I suppose anything that makes the Settler come out faster is a good thing. And no question, once we get Education, we're just going to want to cottage like its going out of style.

But the other piece is that farmed forests will be excellent tiles for worker spam, too, which we're going to need a lot of. Really, we're getting into the phase where we'll want to do a lot more building than commerce. Once we have Way of the Forest, we're going to want a dozen settlers, 2-3 dozen workers, 2-3 dozen warriors - and new techs will be much lower priority - we'll want Priesthood and war tech, but settler spam followed by cottaged forests everywhere can get that for us, and do so a lot better than working grass hills just cause they're next to the river

I still feel commerce is the limiting factor in the early game FFH2. There are several sites that really aren't viable for much until we can get some resources connected. Once you're out of the worker tech collection phase, then I probably agree. Still, FFH is still Civ, and Civ is a game of yields, and one way or another, 3/1/0 tiles are better than 1/1/1 tiles, even if we're only turning them into workers that can't do anything much yet. Cottages quickly is going to be the key to our economy, so we can get those Ancient Forest Towns going that much sooner.

Also, don't get married to the plan. The biggest reason I'm ok with it is that we can, especially post-God King, take a break for a 2 or 3 turn warrior if something comes up. Assuming that you're willing to take that break when it becomes necessary. I think the Pacifism hammer penalty is ok for an emergency-only warrior, even though it does knock us to 3 turn warriors instead of 2 turns warriors.

Only married to Pacifism for 10 turns as well. Can quickly move back to Nationhood should circumstance demand it.

Really it'll depend on city 3. AH isn't worth doing for just a plains Cow, in my opinion, not when we could instead be rushing toward ancient forests everywhere. It might maybe be worth doing for a grass pig, though. (although I note that our grass pig sites have a lot of forest around, too...).

But all in all - the elven economy is extremely straightforward - we want cottaged forests everywhere. And that's about it. Maybe once in a while, mix things up with a mine or a farm or lumbermill, for a GPP city or a wonder city. So therefore we want workers and Priests of Leaves everywhere, post Education. Anything else is low priority, maybe happiness and war tech

So, for a TL:DR? I'm ok with the plan, so long as you keep flexible and are willing to spam workers for a while starting T45.

Thanks for all the comments, guys. Seeing that grass pig staring me in the maw is what makes me want AH, well and for Subdue Animal, but I suppose neither is more important than the religious stuff in the early term. I haven't had an opportunity to imagine a plan which eschews the Elder Council until post-settler, but at the moment, even though T43 feels really late for city 2, I'm thinking its the right move. I think we will need to get married to getting 3,4,5 up within 20 or so turns afterwards, however.

[Gaspar]

T27:

11 point increase for Balseraphs (tech)

7 turns for a forest farm with a lazy worker btw, but I set our worker (who needs a name) on a farm and cancelled the road. Hopefully the extra production makes up for losing a turn or two in how fast we get the site settled.

Brawler moved along the north coast heading down to the barrow. I suspect we'll find a skeleton on it and a dead end, but it can't hurt to try. We'll know more next turn.

With nothing else worth chewing on, here's demos, and the same boring shot of our lands.

[Man Behind the Mask]

Lots to think about and reply to in the last 24 hours!

This plan scares the hell out of me.

If you’re really worried, then I guess you could go hammer heavy (micro for 8hpt) once Mysticism is in to get four turn Elder Council and use the overflow for a one turn warrior. It will delay the settler a little and hold back commerce a tad, but that’s better than losing a lot of hammers to a barb. The reason I’m not overly concerned is that this plan is about settling a city which will be able to do 2 turn warriors at size 2 (pacifism notwithstanding) in a pinch. Remnants site can churn defences while the capital cranks worker/settler.

I think the ideal tech plan for maximizing commerce goes Education --> Calendar --> Festivals ---> Hunting ---> Way of the Forests. Education for cottages; Calendar for fast growth from Agrarian farms and +1 happy from cottonFestivals for another +1 happy from half price Carnivals plus +3 gold from Markets offsetting expansion costs; then straight to religion

On potential tech paths, I hadn’t really considered Calendar, let alone then festivals, as the next choice. Agrarianism is good for the corn tile, but makes forest farms strictly worse because the hammer they lose would be getting the God King Bonus. Extra pop point from the cotton could be worthwhile, though. I’m also not convinced we’ll have the capacity for carnivals and markets for a while yet, sadly. Happy to be shown the error of may ways, though, because that path certainly would be better for our gold output.

On the other hand, an offensive March of the Trees sounds like a great idea.

Optimum ingredients for an offensive March of the Trees: opponent with forest just outside their territory; settler; Leaves Disciple; spare underwear. Recipe: settle city; pop borders with mini culture-bomb; fire worldspell; have treants deliver underpants to unfortunate opponent!

If we did intend to attack Sheaim with Treants it'd almost be better to not get WotF too early, to not waste as much Ancient Forestage when we fired the world spell

I’m not sure how this makes sense? The fact a forest has grown to Ancient once won’t slow it down when it needs to do so again. I’d have thought you’re better off with early WotF to have more forest to create treants and better yields before popping the worldspell.

And finally the actual turn. Top in research and food… looking good! For 14 manufacturing, I’m going to guess at the Grigori with God King and Philosophical bonus on an Elder Council. As long as it isn’t the 42k soldiers going for overkill!

[Mardoc]

7 turns for a forest farm with a lazy worker btw, but I set our worker (who needs a name) on a farm and cancelled the road. Hopefully the extra production makes up for losing a turn or two in how fast we get the site settled.

7 Turns! I guess it must take the same time as if we were cutting down the forest too, only the forest stays up at the end. Plus our -20% speed .

I think 2 workers/city isn't going to cut it, then. We should probably aim closer to 3/city. Or at least 2.5. Especially if we're going to be going for any sort of suburbia plan.

I also agree we'll want Calendar and Festivals, but probably not until after WoTF in my opinion. And maybe not until after Priesthood. We ought to be able to boost the happy cap by 2 with Fellowship of Leaves and Religion, after all, and likely another couple-few with Hunting between the Ivory (if we can camp on jungle, I think that's a yes) and the animals. Because of Subdue animal (and proof that there are bears and spiders to be had) I think I change my mind on the value of Animal Husbandry. The sooner we get Hunters going, the better. It's still probably unlikely that we'll manage the Grand Menagerie, but something is better than nothing.

So all in all I'd probably go for something like AH -> Hunting -> WoTF -> Calendar -> Festivals. With Priesthood somewhere along the line.

[darrelljs]

I think 2 workers/city isn't going to cut it, then. We should probably aim closer to 3/city. Or at least 2.5. Especially if we're going to be going for any sort of suburbia plan.

That's my rule (3/city) as the elves, at least early on.

Darrell

[Gaspar]

Mardoc and/or MBTM: I had to have emergency oral surgery today, so I might not be awake to play the turn in my normal slot. If the save is still around at 10 pm EDT, could either of you play? I think I laid out pretty clearly what
our short term plan is, just switch to max settler production this turn. Brawler should move towards the barrow.

If I can get it, I'll do so, but I doubt it.

[Mardoc]

Mardoc and/or MBTM: I had to have emergency oral surgery today, so I might not be awake to play the turn in my normal slot. If the save is still around at 10 pm EDT, could either of you play? I think I laid out pretty clearly what
our short term plan is, just switch to max settler production this turn. Brawler should move towards the barrow.

If I can get it, I'll do so, but I doubt it.

Ouch! Best of luck healing.

Yes, if the save shows up between 10 pm and my bedtime, I'll play it for you, per directions.