[SPOILERS] MNG as Hattie of France

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Today's turns were fairly uneventful. A few quick points:
*GES and RL7 continue expanding. I'm not too concerned yet. After all, I will jump from 6 to 8 cities in 3 turns, and then from 8 to 9 cities 2 turns later. From there I intend to do a little consolidating, but I plan to get up to 11 cities (silver and Maoi next) within probably 10 turns of hitting #9. 11 cities by T75 on this map is pretty aggressive. We're looking at probably 2 more cities after that before running out of room. The idea is to use the central tundra as much as possible. This is why I'm prioritizing the "pink dot" city to block Commodore off so highly.
*Lots of continued whipping around the empire. Paris now has HG due in 3 turns. I'll choose to delay that for city #9 unless I hear rumor of it getting sniped before then.
*My first walls comes online next turn, to defend me from an invasion by Yuris in the NE.
*GES landed COL this turn, and RL7 landed the Great Library. I wasn't going for either, so more power to them ... Although I understand that Commodore was interested in the Great Library.

That's really it for now. I realize it's been since the GL was built that I put in pictures. So plan will be to do pictures during my evening update tomorrow night.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

The picture thing didn't come out how I'd planned. Suffice to say it's been a very long, very draining week at work, and I've put off updates until the point that I'm falling asleep in my computer chair.

I do have tomorrow off though, so perhaps that'll be the time for this long-promised update?

In game related news, it's been a few turns of moving settlers and building mines/cottages with workers. During the morning turn, the first 2 of 3 new cities were added to the empire, so that's good. The last of those cities will likely be settled during one of tomorrow's turns, at which point I'll either land the HG or get a ton of gold to fuel some kind of research. I'll get more specific after playing tonight's turn. And maybe then I'll put in those pictures --- or I'll put it off again!

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Commodore saw my pink dot settler. Drama went down.

More later

[Mr. Nice Guy]

This was a very dramatic turn. First news, this:


changed this:



Into this:

[Mr. Nice Guy]

And how about a few overview shots of the empire at large. Here's the north first:

And the south:

And this little gem:


That last city is a big net drain on the economy right now. But once I have furs and silver hooked up it will be good for +2 (soon to be +3) happiness all over the place. Combined with the fact that it will bring in a fair little bit of commerce of its own and it will be worth the drama.

Now to parse through some of the diplo drama and find a quote or two good enough to share with the peanut gallery

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Below is my chat with Commodore from this evening.
To summarize, he approached me mentioning the pink dot settler. He wanted me to backdown. I basically told him 'I like you, but I'm in the position of power here and I won't be backing down.' I just hope he doesn't misunderstand this. I will still be planting a silver city to the north, and another clam/fur city to the east of Avignon will be mine too. Sorry Commodore, I'm pushing you out of the hub area

[COLOR="Yellow"]7:01 PM So yeah...about that silver in between us.
7:03 PM That spot you're on now is not going to work for me.
7:04 PM I'm willing to negotiate, but it's nearer to my capital than yours.
7:07 PM MNG? Hey mate?[/COLOR]
9 minutes
7:17 PM It wrecks my settle for furs, if you move 2N I can still fit it.
7:18 PM sorry, have been out and about
7:19 PM That's cool, I understand it.
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"] i'll have to look in the game at the spots you're talking about
probably 10, 15 minutes?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Yellow"] It trades a clam for a clam
That's fine.
Your cultural trait just crushes me if you settle there.
7:23 PM Erm, d'oh, I meant 2N, 1NW
7:25 PM 1NE would also work if you could limit culture so I could keep my furs.
7:28 PM Sorry, I know it's just hard to work with that +2 culture.[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]oh, i know how that is, i had to do it with CHASM in PB3.
i'm getting in game now so (probably after dinner) i can talk specifics[/COLOR]
7:29 PM That's fine.
9 minutes


7:38 PM okay so i'm looking at the map
[COLOR="Yellow"]7:39 PM See my purposed site?
The ice patch next to my clams?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"] the first thing you should know as we begin this conversation is that more than anything else, i value our cooperation thus far in the game
7:40 PM i've even told my lurkers that i consider you #1 on my list of teams that i'd like to ally with, long term[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Yellow"] Yeah, you've been a great player to work with.
Yeah, I mentioned I'd love to be in a team game with you, been good to work with.[/COLOR]
7:41 PM thank you so... this is the part of the game where being neighbors gets tougher.
[COLOR="Yellow"] Yeah, I understand it.
7:42 PM I actually just posted a dotmap where I was speculating about the tundra divying.[/COLOR]
so, i am a little short on map knowledge in that area
7:43 PM [COLOR="Yellow"]Actually, I'll send you the dotmap.
I was sadly admitting you had the right of the silver. :-([/COLOR]
considering i can settle silver now, that's probably right
7:44 PM [COLOR="Yellow"] Oh, no doubt about it.
Gaspar's been yelled at for it.
Sent my notional map
7:45 PM You can see your current spot wrecks both of my notional spots.[/COLOR]
headed to construction?
Yep, GES has been pressuring me hard.
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]7:46 PM gotcha
that doesn't surprise me given his reputation[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Yellow"] Red were my debatable spots.
7:47 PM Well, his WC window is narrowing
7:48 PM So I think it's an itch
So yeah, not much I can do if you force it. :-([/COLOR]
7:49 PM so, do you think that's an island south of your deer yellow area?
Yeah, think so.
7:50 PM so, you can see why that area is so valuable to me, considering that i have gl and all
7:51 PM Ah, IC TRs
yeah, it would be a game changer for me
Hrm, dunno if GES knows about "his" island
7:52 PM do you think we all have islands?
Hrm. Yuri does, RL7 may.
7:53 PM : very interesting
7:54 PM I thought so.
7:55 PM [COLOR="RoyalBlue"] so here's the thing
7:57 PM i'm in a position to settle the fur this turn. that fur is important for my empire as i'm finally growing to become happy-constrained[/COLOR]
7:58 PM [COLOR="Yellow"] Ah, hrm.
7:59 PM Seems to be hard to reach the clams.
I saw that site briefly but that was actually why I discounted.
8:00 PM Sigh. Do you think you could help me with those extra furs and silver?
8:01 PM If I'm going to push back GES I can probably settle the island soon.[/COLOR]
8:02 PM i wouldn't mind you taking the island if you kept borders open with me
8:04 PM Hrm, and I get extra silver and furs until I hook more up?
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]8:05 PM how about this...
8:06 PM i'll trade you that island, which i expected to settle, for the fur site, which you expected to settle[/COLOR]
8:07 PM [COLOR="Yellow"] Hrm.
8:08 PM Tentatively, that will work.
My battery is dying, but we can find other deals too.
I would at least like preferred trade status.
8:09 PM SIP if needed. That actually will speed up my Maoi site.[/COLOR]
8:10 PM sip?
Settle in place.
looking like 1 south fits my dotmap best
[COLOR="Yellow"] Bit bummed, but it's a fairly won race.
The flat tundra?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"] yeah
to be honest...[/COLOR]
8:11 PM That won't hurt my borders, that'll be good.
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"] original plan was the plains sw of that tundra
clam+crab+fur
8:12 PM +whales[/COLOR]

[Mr. Nice Guy]

So, GES had a long (2 hours and 311 lines in GChat) conversation. Mostly about game pace, and comparing this game to other experiences (in a positive light. This chat was going on simultaneously with the Commodore conversation. Here are a few snippets:

Mansa: You have any other wonder plans other than TGLH?
I have pretty much ignored them all
6:47 PM me: will i be cutting you off if i go for chichen itza?
nah, i have to get maoi soon though
Mansa: Yeah, I want Maoi too
Trying to decide which city
I have one city with 16 water tiles, but I feel like my production city with only 10 is probably better
6:48 PM me: ah the classic challenge of where to put maoi
so i don't know that i'm going to be aggressive on wonders at this point... but i know that at least 2 other teams have come to me for a stone trade
6:49 PM sounds like it's good that you went for col
there would have been a race for HG
6:50 PM Mansa: I would've made the best use of HGs I think
But I didn't have a way to get stone
So I passed
me: aside from your large city count, how would you have made the best use of it?
Mansa: that is what I mean
6:51 PM I will have 10 cities in a couple turns
that would've been very valuable
I could've whipped an aqueduct and chopped it with stone very quickly
but without stone, ehh
me: i hear ya
that's why i had no interest in great library
6:52 PM no marble
Mansa: I am so happy capped that all I would've done is whipped, which is nice I suppose, but really, not worth much more MFG than the gardens cost without stone
me: and then you have to factor in opportunity cost of turns spent producing hg.
6:53 PM i always wonder if i should pull the trigger on it or wait "one more turn" for "one more city" .. which is why i usually avoid it.
Mansa: haha
yeah
So you seem like a very good civ player even though you signed up for the noob game. I assume you have played a lot of SP?
I might be the biggest noob in the game TBH.

The bolded part, while quite a nice compliment, is also worrisome to me. I've had some lucky breaks in this game, but am overall just an average player - Monarch on SP. My goal is to take advantage of lucky breaks, but downplay that as much as possible. Fly under the radar so to speak. Seems as though that goal is slipping away from me.

me: for the sake of argument, let's say there was a source of ivory there
as well
7:32 PM if you were creative and therefore could guarantee control of the rice/ivory, would you settle there, blocking rl7 off from the tundra?
Mansa: Depends on a couple things
1) Most important, can I defend it?
me: yes
7:33 PM Mansa: 2) Do I think the other person is strong enough to eventually rip it down?
me: not in the next 10 turns without ripping their empire to shreds
Mansa: But long term, will you just be building a city for them to take over once it is productive?
7:34 PM Right now, a city that far from your capital is a net negative until it reaches about size 4 at least/
7:35 PM me: what would be fair compensation for not settling... when you already have a settler/worker/pair of axes almost there?
Mansa: Again, that depends on if I can hold it long term
Is it a resource you dont have?
7:36 PM me: yes
Mansa: Can you improve it now?
me: yes
7:37 PM Mansa: That is pretty valuable, and obviously very valuable to the other person
But you have to understand
If I did that to RL7, I would know that is act of war
they would divert resources both short and long term to taking it back
I would be stealing land, a valuable resources, and their connection to the hub
that would be unacceptable for them
7:38 PM If someone came and settled my silk, they would die, end of story
me: hmmm... and your silk spot, from what i can tell, isn't nearly as strong as the spot in question
7:39 PM Mansa: It is more the principal. Think bitch slap theory of politics. It isn't just about the city and the resources, but the hammer to the pride.
me: yeah, i get that
7:42 PM Mansa: So i would say it is VERY valuable
Espeically because this map is low happy cap
But if you cannot hold it
me: and therefore deserves good compensation?
Mansa: then it isn't really worth it
7:43 PM If you believe you can hold it, there probably isn't compensation that is worth it
JMHO

So basically, he agreed with me. That spot is not just valuable to me, but very valuable to Commodore. If I can hold it should there be conflict --- and I am confident that with culture+walls+3 axes I can --- I should take it. There just isn't any compensation that would justify giving it up.

7:44 PM Mansa: You keep this between us?
me: this whole game conversation is just between us
probably the first building block of a strong relationship, i hope
7:45 PM Mansa: Last turn I took 2 war chariots and 2 axes to Comm's border and demanded he settle his settler in place so I could steal a double seafood site, otherwise I would kill his settler and possibly rip down and steal his gold city.
me: wow
poor commodore. i like the guy but he's getting the shit end of the stick on both sides
7:46 PM in confidence, this conversation is about my potential pink dot in his area

{Snipped}
Mansa: I should meet yuris next turn finally
How are you guys getting along?
7:51 PM me: good. you haven't met him?
Mansa: Nope, I see his borders finally
me: that means that he's getting stone from rl7
7:52 PM Mansa: Interesting
I asked them for it for Maoi and they acted like they hadn't hooked it up yet
good to know
me: well, commodore asked me for it
and so did yuri
7:53 PM i declined to yuri because commodore and i are looking at a deal possibility
and yuris response was "that's okay, i have another deal on the way"

and, umm.. i think commodore may have rolled over on my city plant...
which means i may be settling and taking hanging gardens this turn....
8:05 PM Mansa: You are that close to HGs?
me: 1 turn to completion, will finish at eot
didn't want to comment earlier until i saw the save to get an idea of when i should complete
i've been sandbagging it
8:06 PM waiting for the settler to reach pink dot
8:07 PM Mansa: You ARE playing too well
Time to support Comm
!
me: lol
says the guy about to settle city #10,
despite getting screwed by the map
8:08 PM Mansa: But I've crashed my economy and built no wonders!
Look away!
Nothing to see here!
8:09 PM me: lol! but i've over-prioritized wonders and am just now remembering cottages! look away! nothing to see here!
8:10 PM Mansa: If you pass me in food with the HGs, I swear to god I will rush you with chariots
8:11 PM me: lol. i'd like to see that!
are you top food?
8:12 PM Mansa: depending on turn
me: yeah, i'm not reaching that number any time soon
hg will be used to whip infra in my 3 new cities

See my demo post from above... um... HG had a bigger impact on food than I expected. But in fairness, I was honest when I said I'd be whipping infra in newer cities with that pop... so the food number will shrink a little bit again.

So that's the chat with GES. Basically, I'm trying to buddy up to him as much as possible. For the first half of the game, he's the only player that won't be a direct neighbor. He's a strong player. And I think that when the time's right, he and I can split Commodore's land equitably.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

This morning's turn was much simpler than the previous few. I whipped a workboat at pink dot, and a granary at the old barb city. I'm now near the top - but not at the top - of most demographic categories. I suppose there's no need to try and hide in the middle of the pack at this point, I have a military to defend my expansion. With cheap walls soon, the only threat to my empire will be a catapult driven attack from Commodore after he gets construction in 3-4 turns. I don't think that's a very likely scenario, though, based on how he's trying to be super cooperative with me. In foreign news, RL7 completed the Temple of Artemis this turn. Good enough - that means the only team I likely cut off from the HG was Yuris.

Here's my demographics from end of turn:

[Mr. Nice Guy]

And a question if any lurker has more free time than I do..... any great resources on trade routes? How does the game determine whether I get domestic or international routes in any given city? And how does it calculate the value of any given route?

Would love to learn more, especially since it's become important to my game with TGL... Thanks!

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I'm having fun! Let's see what kind of price the market can bear on my spare resources:

If you aren't trading your ivory for the next few turns, perhaps I could ask you to gift it to me until I get my gems back from Comm. I told Comm that I would gift it to him until he had a happy to trade for it, but it looks like he is not going to be able to secure silver to keep up that half of the bargain based on the screenshot you sent me. Eventually I would like to make it a silver for gems trade for the long haul.
GES

Hi GES,

Unfortunately, my ivory is not available for trade until the second ivory is roaded (ETA EOT 67).

That said, once my spare ivory comes along, I would be happy to gift it to you!

What were you thinking in terms of payment for the time until you can make a gems-ivory trade? I expect it would be worth quite a bit, especially for an empire as large as yours. What do you think of a cost in the ballpark of 5 gpt?

In the future, I would be happy to make that silver for gems trade. I mismanaged my worker at the new city, I'm afraid, so I won't get silver up for around 13 turns.

Let me know what you think, and we'll get some deals inked between us.
Until later,
MNG, Hattie of France