RBP4 [SPOILERS] - Shaka of Zulu (sunrise089, regoarrarr, and friends)

[Krill]

So, I did it. Declared war on plako. I expect he and ASM will be.... pleased? with that

So I thought I'd at least write down my thoughts on this. At least I can get it on paper before this war starts. I do recognize that this is likely to hand LP the game (if he didn't have it in the bag already). So why do it?

Well, I've recognized that I / we / the Zulus have very little to no chance of winning this game, for quite some time. And so then what do we do?

Let me step back a little bit to talk about past relationships.

At the tail end of plako's war with WarriorKnight, I was VERY annoyed with the fact that plako essentially "bullied" his way into taking land that I felt I at least had a claim to it. Now, that was totally his right to do so. He had the big army, and so it's certainly a fair option to just try and grab as much land as you can get away with it. But it didn't earn them very many friends in Zululand.

Then in the mid-game, China went all "passive-aggressive" - spending tons of EPs on us, militarizing the border, which made us fairly nervous.

But let's talk about LP. We had pleasant out of game relations, but in-game, early on, it was just as frustrating. He wouldn't OB, didn't want to strike a deal with Christian missionaries, etc. You can check my thread for more examples of that.

So let's fast forward to the mid-game. China is going passive-aggressive on me. I have no active NAP with LP either. So here we are, still trying to dig ourselves out of the hole we put ourselves in with the GLH gambit, and our 2 immediate neighbors (who are #1 and #2 in score) are both neutral to hostile. I would be VERY surprised if there wasn't some good long discussion between the two of them about allying to attack ME.

In the end, the best deal on the table was a long NAP between ourselves and LP, till T250 I believe. I kept this on the down low, and I don't know if this is well known to either lurkers or other players.

We made talks about attacking plako later on, around T200 but nothing concrete.

Somewhere around there, plako wanted to extend our NAP. There were lots of discussions back and forth about that. I was under the impression that folks were trying to coordinate a dogpile on Lord Parkin, which I wasn't completely opposed to. Even then, I recognized that he was the "top dog" and bringing him back to the pack was in Zululand's best interests. I was trying to walk a very thin line here. So I signed a NAP to like T185 with plako, under the impression that a) I could sell that to LP that I couldn't attack plako due to that arrangement, and b) that would give plako and his coalition the chance to attack LP with my non-interference. Later I found out that everyone had NAPs with LP till T200 so that didn't happen.

Now we're here. LP asked me to declare on T199, with the hopes of going first on T200 to take control of the seas between the 3 of us.

Again, I realize that this is likely to make LP win, and it may even be that everyone concedes within the next few turns. If that happens, I'm okay with it. IMO, LP has played the best game and thus deserves to win. Also, he has treated us the best out of any of the other powers, so if I'm going to play "kingmaker" I'm okay with him being the beneficiary.

You, sir, are a retard.

[Krill]

But again, let's look at it from a Zululand perspective. I have no chance to beat LP as it currently stands. This is obvious. When I asked antisocialmunky a month or so what he would do if he were us. He said "NAP up and tech". But even then, you saw the beaker numbers - I'm ~45K beakers down. Not gonna happen. I need more land, and even then I don't know if I could catch up.

Let's say I join in to the global dogpile against LP. Let's even suppose that we are successful (I have my doubts). What do we get out of it? Due to the map design, we have no real chance to hold any gains in ex-Parkinstan. It was certainly true pre-Astro and I think it's just as true now. How could we hold any gains in Parkinstan against any type of effort from plako or nakor or luddite (who would have actual land borders).

I think any land gains we make have to come from plako. It's just geography. Interestingly, LP claims that as a "reward for my loyalty", most of the land gains, should we make any against plako (Again, I have my doubts) will go to us rather than him (even as he's the one who's pulling all the weight militarily). We shall see on that, or if it even makes any difference (again, I have my doubts). But maybe it increases our chance of winning from 0.01% to 0.1%?

What it boils down to is what's in it for Zululand? What incentive do we have to dogpile on LP, if we don't gain anything from it? It's all well and good to say that "if we don't do anything than LP is going to win", but what's the incentive for me to join in if we do dogpile LP, then say plako (or Locke, or Nakor) is going to win?

I've wondered if plako had said something like "We'll give you 5 or so cities (the ex-WK lands in the northeast) if you help out against LP, as we take cities from him", what I'd have done. #1 I don't think they'd ever do that, and #2 I'm not sure if even that would be worth it. Maybe everyone should give all of their cities to one power and see if that's enough

Anyways these posts have been kind of rambling. Feel free to ask questions and I'll try to answer them.

And ditto.

[regoarrarr]

Awesome.

I was waiting for Krill to weigh in, and I am pleased to see that he responded in true Krill fashion

[sunrise089]

Joking Krill, or serious?

By the way, I will say something I consider a real reason to side with LP (as much as there is any reason to "side" with people when Playing Online Empire Building Games With Our Internet Friends) - Plako's civ has been pretty mean to us out-of-game. If we have to deal with an ally via chat and stuff I'd rather it not be the person who bullied us and then who's partner yelled at us.

EDIT: Krill, your sig is out of date. Fix it quick before people start thinking you're capable of errors.

[sunrise089]

Turn played. Astro was set to come in in 2 though I could have burned gold to get it in 1. I assume since we were not downteching that you do want the tech, so I cash upgraded a bit but still set the science level to get the tech in 2t. I plan to actually move in in 1-2t - giving so much warning is terrible tactically, but so is attacking rifles with swords

We have no units and are ridiculously ill prepared for this war, so hopefully our cavalier attitude will let us charm our way to victory.

Request: we should probably make some effort to actually build modern units. Can we slave or put non-essential builds on hold? If you will slave what it makes sense to (if anything) non-military and set stuff that should not be slaved but can wait to like Culture or Research I'll set those cities to units when I play again.

[Kylearan]

I kept this on the down low, and I don't know if this is well known to either lurkers or other players.

Why? Paranoid of leakage, or for show?

[Krill]

Awesome.

I was waiting for Krill to weigh in, and I am pleased to see that he responded in true Krill fashion

Joking Krill, or serious?

Enjoy your capital location?

By the way, I will say something I consider a real reason to side with LP (as much as there is any reason to "side" with people when Playing Online Empire Building Games With Our Internet Friends) - Plako's civ has been pretty mean to us out-of-game. If we have to deal with an ally via chat and stuff I'd rather it not be the person who bullied us and then who's partner yelled at us.

Et tu, Brute? Last time I checked, didn't you attempt, and to some extent succeed, in bullying him out of land that he'd conquered by himself? It's not like you tried to be good friends in the first place.

EDIT: Krill, your sig is out of date. Fix it quick before people start thinking you're capable of errors.

No it's not. PBEM4 didn't end as soon as you died

[regoarrarr]

but so is attacking rifles with swords

We have no units and are ridiculously ill prepared for this war, so hopefully our cavalier attitude will let us charm our way to victory.

That's the spirit!!

Request: we should probably make some effort to actually build modern units. Can we slave or put non-essential builds on hold? If you will slave what it makes sense to (if anything) non-military and set stuff that should not be slaved but can wait to like Culture or Research I'll set those cities to units when I play again.

I don't think that we should necessarily move in in 1-2t or ever. We'll have to see how things go in the west.

Then there's this gem from Nakor

Do you guys really think you have a chance of winning from LP? Without a war?
I can only assume you do, due to the war declaration on Plako.

What will it costs us to make you change sides and help with an attack on the obvious winner?

Cheers,
Nakor

I can't decide if that's worth responding to or how to do so...

[sunrise089]

Enjoy your capital location?

Our cap is fine, we're fourth in score and didn't successfully wage an offensive war to acquire more territory. We're not going to win but considering effort, skills, and civ+leader we never had really greater than a 10% chance to win anyways.

Et tu, Brute? Last time I checked, didn't you attempt, and to some extent succeed, in bullying him out of land that he'd conquered by himself? It's not like you tried to be good friends in the first place.

I think this is anti-regoarrarr (maybe now anti-sunrise089) bias, but I guess thinking back I can see how you'd see it that way.

No it's not. PBEM4 didn't end as soon as you died

My mistake. I though people conceded, sorry.

[fluffyflyingpig]

I don't get it. 7 months in to this massive pitboss game and you decide to deny everyone any semblance of an interesting or fitting conclusion and throw the game to the leader? Just because Plako was mean to you earlier? I guess you might be tired of playing and want to roll over and die, but is that really fair to the other people who commited so much time to this game? What am I missing here?