Post Game Thread

[darrelljs]

Yeah, and I should have sent a message . Oops.

Darrell

[uberfish]

Well, the way to think about Lanun is pirate ports + the ability to use coastal sites productively are an *addition* to whatever the other civs can do economically - there's nothing stopping Lanun from going for contested inland sites first and then backfilling coastal sites later.

Can't let Malakim take all the good land :neenernee

[Thoth]

Second - it's somewhat shocking how much the final outcome was affected by the map. Thoth certainly had the best starting position, and was able to ride that to victory. That said - I'm glad it was him in charge of the Malakim, because he also demonstrated considerable skill at diplomacy, at warfare, and at squeezing the most out of his civ. It's somewhat shocking, reading all our introductory posts with Malakim universally panned.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a couple of points:

1) Mr. Yellow had a much stronger capital than I did. Wet Corn vs Dry Wheat for food, a commerce/happy resource (gems) and oodles of hills for production. Had he played a stronger opening in terms of builds/tech path and diplo he could have gotten off to a very strong start. As things turned out, I wound up in control of two of the best capital locations in the game (the Elohim also had a very strong capital location).

The floodplains were nice, but I was lacking in any real commerce resource and very much lacking in happy resources.

2) While I'm flattered by your comments about my diplo and warfare skills, I felt I could have done better in both departments. Getting my army WTFpwned by Nykrorion's MotT wasn't exactly an example of fine generalship on my part.

My perceptions of my diplo were coloured by my early attempts at negotiating with Mr. Yellow (which were a dismal failure) and I really should have put some more effort into relations with WK, but talking with him via email or chat always seemed strained and difficult and I wound up giving up on him more easily than I should have.

I never had a good handle on what was happening to the east, beyond Thoth; I think the Elohim invasion of the Sheaim was definitely a good thing for the Elohim, but their timing was badly off. Everyone underestimated Thoth, but the Elohim more than the rest of us. Frankly, I don't understand why the Elohim signed *any* NAP's; Sanctuary dominated both its era and inhibited even thoughts of invasion.

The Elohim invasion of the Sheam should have taken place a lot earlier (soon after Poisons). By the time it took place, it was too late.

I agree 100% on WK/Mist's underestimation of me, something that continued right up until the end. Both their estimation of my economic strength and what they could accomplish militarily were way, way off. Had the game continued, their plan to use Valin to raze one of my core cities might have worked, but Valin would have gotten very, very dead the next turn. I don't know if WK had anything coming in behind his stack of Monks/Crusdaders/Corlindale, but that stack was free exp for me unless it was supported by a lot more units.

Irgy was also way off in his estimation of both what happened with the Rosier assasination (luck had nothing to do with the positioning of my Cultists) and the relative costs. I lost two (3? I'm not sure atm) Cultists. I gained a very highly promoted Cultist (who later died as an Eidolon at the 2nd Battle of F. Destination). He lost a hero, spent beakers on Optics instead of something else more useful, spent hammers on PZs and had to worry about a possible naval invasion.

The diplo fallout was minor. I "burnt my bridges" with Irgy. BFD. We'd had very little contact up until that point (little did I realize that he was the prime mover in the Farce-olition) and had no military and a weak economy.

Mardoc seemed amused more than anything else and by that point I'd pretty much given up on diplo with Nyktorion and WarriorKnight. (the mana trades plus WarriorKnight's reneging on our Open Borders for trade routes deal made it obvious that something was going on even if I hadn't already suspected a coalition might be forming......every single RB game that I've read has had some attempt to dogpile the leader. I wasn't BSing when I told Mardoc in chat that "there is little point in having the world's strongest GNP if you don't have the world's strongest army". My military was primarily for deterrence and defensive purposes. I already had enough land to win the game via a Tower win (which is what I was aiming for).

Had the Elohim attacked Thoth while Nyktorion still had an army (say, T160-165), and I followed up - well, the game would likely still be going. It's hard to say which of us would come out on top: Nyktorion was damaged badly by March of the Trees, the Elohim had the most land and probably the best army; I merely had commerce coming out my ears. Everything would probably have depended on who allied first.

I think both you and the lurkers overestimated the damage MotT caused Nykrorion. He lost his ancient forests, but that wasn't a big deal. He could afford the food loss. The big hit was paying upkeep on over9000 Ents for 5 turns. He would have done well to research Warfare and adopt Military State/Conquest instead of Slavery. As the only member of the Farce-olition to actually have a meaningfull military he would have saved a pile of gold in unit maintenance and still have been able to convert food into hammers via either drafting or simply building units with surplus food. He'd also have been able to produce level 2 units instead of whipping out level 1s.

As the person on the receiving end of that MotT, I am of the opinion that he made exactly the right play. His conventional forces had 0 chance of holding out against me. His only hope was to hold out long enough for Mardoc to hit me in the West (WarriorKnight had already sold his "allies" in the Farce-olition down the river). It came very close to working. The losses I took in that battle came very, very close to losing me the game.

Well played Nyktorion.

Frankly, of everyone in the game, I probably have the most guilt for letting the Malakim run away: they were the only foreign situation I could affect/had to directly worry about.

As a Civ that depends upon the sea for food/commerce it would have been very difficult for you to do much without commiting suicide after I'd popped my WorldSpell for 10 Cultists. With the Farce-olition not building any military (except for Nyktorion) it would have been very difficult for you to engage in any early military actions against me.

[NobleHelium]

I don't think the treants cost maintenance. They're temporary summons and normal temporary summons don't require it.

[Thoth]

I don't think the treants cost maintenance. They're temporary summons and normal temporary summons don't require it.

I hadn't considered that. (nor am I sure if it's accurate, I really wasn't paying much attention to how much temporary summons cost me in this game).

If true, then it's one more strike against the "MotTs kills your economy" crowd.

[Mist]

I agree 100% on WK/Mist's underestimation of me, something that continued right up until the end. Both their estimation of my economic strength and what they could accomplish militarily were way, way off. Had the game continued, their plan to use Valin to raze one of my core cities might have worked, but Valin would have gotten very, very dead the next turn. I don't know if WK had anything coming in behind his stack of Monks/Crusdaders/Corlindale, but that stack was free exp for me unless it was supported by a lot more units.

If anything, we overestimated what Mardoc and Nyk could do. Everything we did towards the end of the game was a direct result of situation in the run-up to our NAP expiration around t140. We could either stick with the coalition and go hit you, or we could try to figure out another way to win this game.

We didn't go to war, because frankly, we both agreed it would be like going into meat grinder. Even if we survived in one piece thanks to sanctuary ( which seemed not all that likely ) and our would be allies followed up ( which was also dubious, Irgy had nothing of importance armywise, Mardoc was happily playing farmer and results of Nyk's buildup were still unclear ), we would still be largely irrelevant in the endgame.

So again, we did not underestimate you. At no point over the last 40 odd turns did we feel we stood a chance in direct combat. We just didn't feel like sacrificing our shot at victory ( at admittedly long odds ), to crown Mardoc instead of you.

[uberfish]

It's not so much that Thoth's diplomacy was good but that everyone else's was lacking, really. 50 turns should have been sufficient time for the coalition to agree a commitment to attack at a certain time + a mutually acceptable agreement on dividing the spoils of war.

[haphazard1]

If the original worldbuilder file is still out there, I'd like to give this a whirl as a single player game, to see how much better I can do now that I know how to run the Lanun. (and without Thoth in charge of my immediate neighbor :neenernee)

Ask and you shall receive.

[haphazard1]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a couple of points:

1) Mr. Yellow had a much stronger capital than I did. Wet Corn vs Dry Wheat for food, a commerce/happy resource (gems) and oodles of hills for production. Had he played a stronger opening in terms of builds/tech path and diplo he could have gotten off to a very strong start. As things turned out, I wound up in control of two of the best capital locations in the game (the Elohim also had a very strong capital location).

The floodplains were nice, but I was lacking in any real commerce resource and very much lacking in happy resources.

I have not had time to follow this game, but now that it is over maybe I will try to catch up on the threads. I hope the map turned out well enough for the game to be enjoyable for all involved. If not...well, not much I can say at this point.

The Erebus Continents script goes for "flavor" and for the Malakim that means desert. But to make it livable the script then adds flood plains...which maybe ends up being too much. Anyway, see the map creation thread (if you haven't already) for the discussion which took place and the recommendations which were made.

[Mardoc]

The Erebus Continents script goes for "flavor" and for the Malakim that means desert. But to make it livable the script then adds flood plains...which maybe ends up being too much. Anyway, see the map creation thread (if you haven't already) for the discussion which took place and the recommendations which were made.

It was definitely enjoyable, and if anything the fault is ours for asking for Erebus Continents rather than a more balanced map.

I do appreciate the save