[SPOILERS] Bismarck of Mali (NobleHelium and Lewwyn)

[mackoti]

This kind of stuff can change the history of a game.If this was allowed i would lost half of my atack units.

[NobleHelium]

I thought about it some more and you guys are right, we shouldn't have done that. It's not the fact that it was on the same turn - that's still irrelevant because the turn rollover threshold is arbitrary as I said. But we did gift the unit for the purpose of getting extra movement, so we shouldn't have done that. I doubt the situation will come up again, but we definitely will not do this again. I got caught up in the creativity of the maneuver.

[Gaspar]

Yeah, its not that the turn demarcation is arbitrary, its about a double move. As long as the same unit attacks an opponents unit before the opponent has an opportunity to react, its a double move, regardless of where the turn rollover happens.

About 75% of any pitboss ruleset is divined to prevent this sort of maneuver.

Don't want to drag the morality police into your thread, just offering my opinion.

[Lewwyn]

Yeah, I guess this could be frowned upon. I still think its a brilliant idea if we're not considering the morality of the move. And I give Noble credit for the thought and none of the blame. I was gungho to do it.

Now the question is, since we've established its not a as legitimate, what do we do about units that I gift Jkaen that I've moved into his territory that turn. When its his turn does he simply rest them a turn? I don't know if that's really fair. But considering I'm fighting a war with him I can see the question of this occurring more often.

For example: I move a LB 2 tiles along a road from my territory into Jkaen's. Then I gift it to him on his turn he can move it another two tiles. Is that legitimate? In this case we are still "getting a double move" but noone is attacking or double killing units. In pbem 6 when Seven and i were gifting galleons and berzerkers back and forth we did this pretty much without thought.

[Lewwyn]

Oh and this last turn has been the slowest I've ever seen. Kuro holds the turn 48 hours, then Ellimist holds it 24, I hold it 4 hours, jkaen 3 hours, and now Kuro is up to 21 hours again.

[Gaspar]

Yeah, I guess this could be frowned upon. I still think its a brilliant idea if we're not considering the morality of the move. And I give Noble credit for the thought and none of the blame. I was gungho to do it.

Now the question is, since we've established its not a as legitimate, what do we do about units that I gift Jkaen that I've moved into his territory that turn. When its his turn does he simply rest them a turn? I don't know if that's really fair. But considering I'm fighting a war with him I can see the question of this occurring more often.

For example: I move a LB 2 tiles along a road from my territory into Jkaen's. Then I gift it to him on his turn he can move it another two tiles. Is that legitimate? In this case we are still "getting a double move" but noone is attacking or double killing units. In pbem 6 when Seven and i were gifting galleons and berzerkers back and forth we did this pretty much without thought.

In PBEM10 which novice referenced they took real care not to do even this.

You ultimately have only your own moral compass to answer to. But I would have them rest a turn before gifting to eliminate any possibility.

This is all a great shining example of why unit gifting as a general gets shady pretty fast. Obviously we have to leave the possibility in, since there are very legitimate reasons to gift a unit, but it open a whole can of worms generally closed by sequential turns.

[NobleHelium]

I don't think Jkaen moving gifted units is a problem. We gift him units for the primary purpose of him having them, not for the primary purpose of getting extra movement (as the case of the chariot). That was the problem - we gifted merely to gain an extra 2 movement and attack. In no other case (that I've seen) is a gifted unit held stationary for a full turn after being gifted, so I don't see a problem with that, as long as the primary intent of the gift is to give the unit to the other player. I did read the linked PBEM 10 thread only briefly; if they ended up holding all gifted units stationary for a turn, then that's the first case I've heard of. It certainly hasn't been done with the prior unit gifts in this game. Ellimist asked me to move the settlers as far west as possible before gifting them, which I complied with, and he promptly moved them next turn, for example.

And yeah, I came up with the idea, originally to retreat the chariot. Then Lewwyn the aggressor realized the chariot could just kill the other HA.

[Lewwyn]

And yeah, I came up with the idea, originally to retreat the chariot. Then Lewwyn the aggressor realized the chariot could just kill the other HA.

Damn straight!
Why take the milk when you can have the cow. :neenernee

I'm of the opinion that from now on no gifted units will be in combat. This way it satisfies my moral compass.

[SevenSpirits]

I don't see the moral aspect at all. If people thought that was bad they should have banned it. It's not a double move in a PBEM. It's a one-and-a-half move, and that's the way the game mechanics work. They're dumb IMO, but if you expect people to handicap themselves around dumb game mechanics you need to, you know, talk about it before (or outside) the game.

In my ideal world, units could only be gifted if they had full movement left, along with gifted cities having revolt turns equivalent to how long they'd revolt if captured by the recipient.

[Lewwyn]

Our plan was to tech Meditation>Engineering to build overflow and hide teching engineering. BUT I'm thinking it may not be worth it. If we CAN'T tech Engineering in one turn after Meditation then EMC will se it anyway AND we delay our ability to move units faster by a turn. We NEED Engineering to finish by the EOT 133. If we don't have it at that point then our Crossbow idea on the inner island will NOT work. As it is we have to road 3 extra tiles in order to make sure those Xbows make it in time.

For lurkers the Inner island XBow plan is to double whip two Xbows in Sodium which wil give them 5 XP each. They will get guerrilla 2 promos and stage on a jungled Hill west of the silk tile. We will road that tile and they will travel over the road onto the hill next to Vega and attack on the turn we declare war. This will only work if EMC doesn't get a longbow there but for now there is just an axe. But its a worthwhile endeavor and I do not want to risk to just to stop Ellimist from seeing we're teching Engineering. He knows we have Machinery.

EDIT: And I realize I could just calc it out, but I am unsure how much overflow there already is + how many beakers we would get in overflow from Meditation. So I think opting for the sure bet is probably the best course of action.

One question for lurkers... If I have a longbow in Jkaen's city and it has City def promo, will it get the city bonus even though its my unit in Jkaen's city being attacked by Kuro? Funnily enough I haven't helped a lot of allies in MP warfare without simply gifting units so I'm not sure the answer.

Oh and Seven, thanks for the vote of non-morality.