This Time for Sure: Mardoc reprises the Lanun

[Amelia]

Not going to argue about the coast/land arguement anymore, we might as well play some games to test it out.

And you gave me a chuckle at Darrell's analysis =) I don't think he's the only one with it burned into his memory though, Uberfish told me it killed 3 of his units from full health. That was shocking. (if only you get it early... a well-lucked Raging Seas could have wiped out some people due to barbs early game).

[Mardoc]

Not going to argue about the coast/land arguement anymore, we might as well play some games to test it out.

Fair enough. I think I know my plan - to remain flexible, not get locked into either approach to the exclusion of the others. Because MBTM is right, a ton here depends on the map. Which is more than other civs can say, coast is a definite liability for them.

The irony is that if we build coastal cities, we get lots of extra early gold - and need much less. If we build landlocked cities, it's the reverse. I suppose that calls for a balance, therefore.

So, we'll see how it goes. Maybe in a couple months you can say "I told you so". And in any case, this theorizing in advance of data is perhaps a bit much .

Expansive as a first Adaptive trait is, in my mind, a bit of a pain.

Agreed that Expansive hits at the wrong time. Ideally we could be Creative until ~T40, then Expansive to really boom, followed by something appropriate to the situation. On the other hand, having it early may mean that Mist is right and we don't want it in the 2nd period. I guess that's another 'stay flexible' command, wait and see.

I need to do some proper analysis of the EitB tech tree changes.

That would be very useful. I fear I'm likely to fall into FFH ruts that were deliberated smoothed over by Sareln. Gaspar's mention of Iron Working as a reasonable direction to go is an example, for instance; I hadn't really considered it before.

[Gaspar]

That would be very useful. I fear I'm likely to fall into FFH ruts that were deliberated smoothed over by Sareln. Gaspar's mention of Iron Working as a reasonable direction to go is an example, for instance; I hadn't really considered it before.

Just saying, those Shipyard are flipping fantastic. If you land Heron Throne in a solid Coastal site and add one of those to it, the hammer production is outright terrifying. I think 1T'd National Epic without marble in my test game.

I don't like Slavery in FFH, as a general rule. You're generally much better off to just cash rush as your production modifier.

Again, stated caveat of now having played all of 2 games of EitB. My only real comment is it is different enough that it really doesn't feel like a balance of FFH. It feels like a whole different game.

[Sareln]

I need to do some proper analysis of the EitB tech tree changes.

Before you do too much work on that analysis, I have a spreadsheet with all the tech costs, the cumulative cost to get each tech, and the delta in beakers for each tech already in an excel file. I'll post that in the mod's subsection of the forum shortly.

[Mardoc]

Just saying, those Shipyard are flipping fantastic. If you land Heron Throne in a solid Coastal site and add one of those to it, the hammer production is outright terrifying. I think 1T'd National Epic without marble in my test game.

Well, yes, ~doubling production would be awfully nice. Probably on par with Governor's Manors, really, or elven forests. I was just thinking how expensive Iron Working is, and unrelated to fishy goals - which facts aren't really true anymore. Frigates, improved Boarding Parties (draftable!), Shipyards, Iron, Forges - that's a bunch of nice toys.

Also, looking at the changelog again, I find a potential route to be yes, Spiritual at T70 - Foreign Trade to grow coves and towns, along with picking a government civic, some religious building, maybe a jaunt in StW and Conquest, then at T145 get into Philo + Mercantilism, for 2 free specialists/city.

I don't like Slavery in FFH, as a general rule. You're generally much better off to just cash rush as your production modifier.

I'm coming to that conclusion in FFH, yes. Does it still hold in EitB? Gotta think about it.

What else do I think I know that isn't so? That's where the opportunities are.

[DaveV]

Your start:

[Mist]

I think we can safely forget about Fishing start here.

Fishing gives us only two coves ( lake + one other ) and Fish.

Calendar gives more food ( wet corn, grass farms around the lake ), commerce and happy cap ( silk ) and health ( Agrarianism, granary with corn )

I'd settle in place, tech Calendar->Mining->Fishing in this order, push first two cities inland and then start worrying about the sea.

[Ichabod]

I think we can safely forget about Fishing start here.

Fishing gives us only two coves ( lake + one other ) and Fish.

Calendar gives more food ( wet corn, grass farms around the lake ), commerce and happy cap ( silk ) and health ( Agrarianism, granary with corn )

I'd settle in place, tech Calendar->Mining->Fishing in this order, push first two cities inland and then start worrying about the sea.

I wouldn't say that the decision is that obvious. There's 2 farms possible if you settle in place and one is a bad plains one (you'll need crafting + mining for the other ones and you also want AH for the cows). Silks are a bad yield tile, especially on the early game where you want production.

On the other hand, the Lanun get 2 prereqs for fishing on EitB (exploration + seafaring), making it faster. 2 coves + fish is pretty good food.

It's worth some sandboxing, in my opinion.

[Gaspar]

I wouldn't say that the decision is that obvious. There's 2 farms possible if you settle in place and one is a bad plains one (you'll need crafting + mining for the other ones and you also want AH for the cows). Silks are a bad yield tile, especially on the early game where you want production.

On the other hand, the Lanun get 2 prereqs for fishing on EitB (exploration + seafaring), making it faster. 2 coves + fish is pretty good food.

It's worth some sandboxing, in my opinion.

My thought was precisely this, particularly with no rivers meaning no extra commerce from tiles. Feels like you almost have to go Fishing first if you want to have any kind of commerce early. It probably is worth sandboxing, though anyone who's lurked me elsewhere knows I'm too lazy to build them. I'd think coastal capital and then scout for a good inland production site from eyeballing, though.

[Ichabod]

I think the best option is to pop fishing from that hut.

Don't you agree?

:neenernee