Ok, we've still got some opponents to analyze. Next up, darrelljs' Ljosalfar.
First things first - we know he got Hunting from the hut, because he gained 2000 soldier points and a 1st tier tech (this was Mist's deduction). That'll be huge for him, a significant reduction in the time it'll take him to get the elven economy started. Sadly I haven't had time to try to analyze the other people's pops.
Now, Erebus in the Balance things that will affect darrell:
There are no direct changes to the Ljosalfar. Anything that matters will do so indirectly. Well, that is, except that Amelanchier is now Philo, but that doesn't matter for this game.
Republic and Foreign Trade are now huge for him - +1 hammer +1 commerce on towns will change the elven econ from eventually hitting 3/1/5 tiles, to hitting 3/2/6 tiles - and that more quickly. Fortunately he's still limited somewhat by the lazy workers and need for a swarm of Priests of Leaves, although that has been chopped down by his Hunting pop.
Hunting no longer gives Hawks, just Hunters. Buildings cheaper will disproportionately help him; elves already wanted to have big cities with lots of infra, now that's easier to achieve. Lumbermills buildable in Ancient forests will probably not actually help him much; elves prefer to simply build mines in their forests .
Archers are cheaper. We might actually see some this game, therefore, and Dextrous might matter. Fawns are also significantly cheaper, and they now get a +25% bonus for attacking into forests. Might see them as well (and hence might also see Satyrs). Satyrs and Kithra have both been moved to Guardian of Nature instead of Animal Handling/Feral Bond, so they're more likely to show up. For that matter, the mundane tech tree is entirely cheaper, so we might see Longbows and Flurries out of Darrell.
Oh, and darrell took Arendel, Spiritual means that any changes in other religions are also likely to show up. We still need to do our comparitive religions class on the changes, to see what effect that's likely to have.
To sum up? The Elven economy is more scary than it was, and will set up quicker, in addition. It was already pretty darn scary given time. Some of the options that were previously flavor only for the elves may now be worth serious consideration, now that they're less ridiculously priced.
To handle darrell - we need any standard army, although mobility will be less useful with all those forests in our way. Treetop defense is still the perfect spell for invading elves with . But crucially - more than anyone else, darrell will be a production/GNP monster in the late game, if he has equal amount of land to grow into, and hasn't been harassed. We absolutely 100% must outexpand him at every stage of the game if we're to have a chance. This can be either REXing or invading him, but something's got to happen on this front. And of course there's always the threat of March of the Trees if we try the invasion approach.
Finally, the last of our competitors, Tatan's Valledia the Even of the Amurites
Direct changes:
Valledia is now Arcane/Organized/Ingenuity. The Cave of Ancestors now replaces Pagan Temples, at Mysticism, instead of being unlocked at Sorcery. Firebows have a base strength of 5/5 instead of the original 5/4. Command Posts are now +3 XP instead of +2.
Indirect changes; Arcane is now +30 XP cap. Mage Guilds now open a Sage slot. Conquest now is worth +3 XP and is available at Education. Nothing much else will disproportionately affect Amurites. But that's enough.
It means, among other things - by the time he reaches Knowledge of the Ether, Tatan has the ingredients he needs to be able to train Adepts at 11 starting XP: Cave of Ancestors is minimum +3 from palace mana, command post +3, Apprenticeship +2, Conquest +3. If he wants to ignore one of these, he can; improved Potency means time for, say, 8 XP adepts to reach Mage level is well under 10 turns. This assumes that he doesn't get the Form of the Titan or any improved mana nodes. Essentially, insta-mages are achievable without too much trouble.
Our saving grace? He hasn't much for economy. No civ-specific bonuses to expansion or tech. Organized won't help him grow faster, just afford an empire if he gets one, with the sole exception of building himself lighthouses if he decides to build some coastal cities. In fact, he's likely to invest hammers into Command Posts and Caves of Ancestors before he really should; I would be tempted to do so in his shoes, anyway.
I expect him to go to war, therefore, to try to get his 'fair share' of the land that he'll be incapable of getting by peaceful methods.
So, that's it for the foes. Time to come back to figuring out EitB's changes that will affect our gameplan. What do we need still?
Comparitive religions. Except for Nox Noctis, Sareln's attempted balancing by additional bonuses. What's now worth considering that wasn't? Which way do we want to go?
Traits. I've been assuming Spiritual is the obvious place to be when our adaptive switch comes in. Am I right? Are there any bonuses to our foes that I haven't taken into account above?
Civics. I keep coming back to Republic and Foreign Trade now being viable, but Sareln's attempted to make them all worth considering. Did he succeed?
Tech tree. A lot of techs are cheaper, or have been removed entirely. Which options are worth considering that weren't before?
Victory: Given all of the above, which victory conditions are going to be most feasible for us
Any changes that I haven't taken into account at all? In particular, buildings and units that aren't disproportionately better for one civ, but are still now worth using?
Any lurker, feel free to jump in and run with one of these. Otherwise I'll get to them later on, as I have time.
Foul tempter
[SPOILER]Not my fault
[SPOILER]Abandon all hope, ye who open the next spoiler!
[SPOILER]
Oh. That didn't hurt at all! The only question now is - does the scout go back home with the supplies, or onward to more exploration. I'm leaning toward onward, a scout's not going to do much to protect them even if there is a threat.
Also I suppose there's the question of what to do with those supplies. I'm leaning toward Temple to Kilmorph - wouldn't hurt to research Kilmorph anyway, and we already know where gems are.
Mardoc Wrote:Comparitive religions. Except for Nox Noctis, Sareln's attempted balancing by additional bonuses. What's now worth considering that wasn't? Which way do we want to go?
Alright, time to look into this. Same 7 religions, 1 banned.
Octopus Overlords - doesn't much matter, it's banned this game. Still, as long as I'm looking at changes, I might as well look at changes.
Tsunami - now range 1 instead of 2. Honestly, I don't expect this to matter much. It'll still take an oceanside stack to 25% health, which is easy to crush. About all the shrunken range means is that it's harder to use for harassment/tile destruction, and you're less likely to have collateral damage. It might actually be more useful on defense now because of that, you don't necessarily lose everything you've built.
Stygians have been changed a lot. They're now more expensive (200 normal hammers from 120), Str 10 instead of Str 7 + metals, and instead of getting them at Mind Stapling, you have to make it to Malevolent Designs. All in all I think this is a nerf.
Asylums have stronger effects in both directions - now -2 happiness, but +25% research. You have to think about building them now, but I still think both Asylums and Lunatics are a red herring except in very specific cases (if you're currently being invaded, if you've built the Tower of Complacency).
To sum up? Some tweaks, you can't rely on Stygians as early melee power anymore, but the basics of OO are still the same - early culture, water walking and Tsunami for the real power. And still banned for this game, so it doesn't matter at the moment.
Runes of Kilmorph:
Kilmorph has been straight-up boosted. Bambur's +1 Str (now 6 Str), Arthendain starts with Medic III instead of Medic II, Paramanders are available at Arete instead of having to wait for Fanaticism and are 6/8 instead 7/7. And the Mithril Golem is now worth considering at 400 hammers instead of 1200. Not that we'll see him that often with the Mithril and AC70 requirements.
No other changes. Basically Kilmorph is now not just an economy religion, you can get some military mileage out of it as well. That said, it still has no collateral, so it can't be the whole of your army.
I don't think Kilmorph will be 'the' religion for us - but it might fit as 'a' religion. Huge map and a REX plan means both the shrine and the temples will be quite valuable. A stonewarden here or there, some paramanders for stack defense could be worth having.
Fellowship of Leaves:
Fawns are now 60 Normal hammers instead of 90, and have +25% attacking into forests. They might actually be worth building now! Which means Satyrs might be seen (they're at Hidden Paths instead of Animal Handling).
Kithra Kitherial is available at Hidden Paths instead of Feral Bond, so we'll see him too.
Oh, and lumbermills can now be built in Ancient forests, for those non-elven civs who might want to.
Not much change here, all things considered. Fawns are now a plausible early game unit, to keep your forests from being a defensive liability, which means a few of those 9/4 Satyrs might make an appearance as well. But Fellowship is still what it was, all about the forest plants for the elves and maybe some niche Ancient Forest lumbermills for everyone else, plus free Tigers out the wazoo for military might.
I don't think it's likely we'll want to go for Leaves, unless we need culture. We're not likely to have food problems, we'd rather chop down our forests and build mines than aim for ancient forest lumber. And a tiger military, while very good early, pales later on; with a huge map that's the wrong pattern!
Ashen Veil:
Um...Corruption of Spirit and Infernal Pact more expensive, Way of the Wicked no longer required. I can't find any other changes. Which makes sense, it was already one of the best options, but with nothing obviously OP and needing a nerf.
I think it's very likely we'll still want Ashen Veil. Every piece of it is useful - the bonus beakers, the strong collateral, the alternate mage supply. The only reason to consider doing otherwise might be if one of the other three has been boosted enough to replace it (especially if it's Order that's been boosted).
The big changes are in the next three, Order, Empyrean, and Council of Esus. But that'll have to wait for another post. These have big changes, with implications that need a lot of thought and care.
Alrighty, let's start off with Ashen Veil's direct competition, Order
All sorts of changes here. It's possible I might miss one, therefore.
First things first:
In this case, I'm actually going to go through the whole package for Order. Enough has changed that synergies/interactions may matter, and if Sareln did the balancing right, the whole package should now be on par with Ashen Veil.
Since it's impossible to have both Order and AV in a city, we really do need to choose here. Previously it's been a no-brainer - AV was simply better in 95% of the cases. Is that still true?
Order no longer has Way of the Wise as a prereq, so it should be easier to get to.
What does Order offer now:
Changelog Wrote:Order Spread gives a Crusader if you have Orders from Heaven
Order Spread gives an Acolyte, gives a Confessor if you have Theology
Sareln? Does this mean you get both the Acolyte and the Crusader on spreading to a new city?
Order offers standard low-level units, the Acolyte. Acolytes can be upgraded up to Crusaders, so those can start with Spiritual benefits potentially.
The Confessor, the Order Priest, has the 'bless' spell, which grants all living units +1 Str until their next combat. Golden! They also start with Inquisitor, now; seems flavorful. And they have Spirit Guide, so their XP comes back to other units. Which would be especially handy for, say, a Spiritual Charismatic leader .
The Crusader has been altered a lot. It's now available earlier, at Orders from Heaven. Is cheaper. Is Str 5 instead of previous Str 7, but can use metal weapons, so that's a wash. And, if I'm interpreting the changelog correctly, you can get one free for every city you spread the Order to.
The Temple of Order is a standard temple, except that it grants +10% military production.
The other building Order offers, the Basilica, is quite interesting. Another question to be answered either by Sareln or by opening the game and looking around: Basilicas have had a cost reduction. How much? But what does a Basilica do? -40% maintenance, stacks with both Courthouses and Overcouncil
Speaking of Overcouncil, although it's not strictly requiring Order: it now grants +10% research, -10% maintenance, and enables the draft. Stack together Overcouncil, Courthouse, and Basilica for a total -90% maintenance!
Order has a couple strong heroes, Valin Pheneul and Sphener. No changes to them.
And finally, the Order High Priest now has Pillar of Fire, which has become a 30% dmg, 50% cap spell. In addition to keeping the Unyielding Order spell, which removes all maintenance and unhappiness from a city he stands in.
To sum up: I'm actually quite tempted here. In a builder game on a Huge map, getting essentially free spreads and units (use an acolyte, gain an acolyte and crusader) will be nice. With a Charismatic leader, who's potentially able to also grant the improved Potency, getting some lvl 6 Confessors to upgrade to Priors may not be too much of a slog. (expected time from 0XP to the relevant 20XP (lvl6) = 27 turns.) Could do better with clever use of Spirit Guide, and/or XP-granting civics and buildings.
And the potential for -90% maintenance on a map where we plan to expand to ridiculous levels...is nice.
We don't expect an early war, we expect an early REX. So we might very well have time to develop some Priors by the time of war.
What do we give up? Well, quite likely give up Ashen Veil, in quantity anyway. We might be able to quarantine AV in a couple cities for Savant -> Mage production, or might have to try for normal mages (which with Cha is 'only' 33 turns from 0 XP. Although...if we could manage a command post somewhere for our Mage Guild, add in Apprenticeship/Conquest, even mages wouldn't be too very painful to achieve. The biggest loss is the spammable early strong collateral of Ring of Flames. If this map is as big as I think it is, though, we can sacrifice that, and use Pillar of Fire/mages instead.
How would we use it? Well, honestly, we'd go for Order as our very first religion, on a relative beeline. It's easier to get to than it was, and would be the perfect culture source for new cities, speeding our snowball. Eventually we'd pick up some Confessors and Crusaders, and go mess with someone - or else wait until we can upgrade them to Priors, and pick that as the time for war. Or of course, if there's no point in war, a dash of Unyielding Order in the right place, perhaps augmented by City of a Thousand Slums, could make a monster of a city.
Mages would likely have to be acquired by specific focus, to get the Form of the Titan or XP civics or etc. We'd have fewer Mages than otherwise. Or we'd rely on Mobility catapults, which can't be Lacuna'd.
Empyrean: Apparently I had the wrong expectations here. The only changes I can find to Empy are nearly neutral.
Chalid is now available at Honor, but without Pillar of Flame.
Radiant Guard are now 3/4 units, +25% vs Recon
It's still a pretty decent religion, as a support with Blinding Light everywhere. And Vicar's Crown of Brilliance is better than the new Pillar of Fire, so maybe we'd want to go Order first and then swap into Empy for Vicars? Dunno.
Esus: Here, we have a major overhaul. The previous reason to go Esus, Nox Noctis, is majorly nerfed, now it's just a shrine with shadow mana.
When CoE is state religion, can hire Nightwatch like mercenaries with Recon Units after Deception and Bowyers
Recon units with Esus as Religion can cast spells for money
Hire the Nightwatch - castable by recon units under CoE with Bowyers, costs 200 GP
Esus Heal - Can be cast by recon units under Esus and player has medicine. Heals 35 HP for 75 GP
CoE Holy city gives +3 GPT, Esus cities give +1 GPT
CoE as state religion treats other religions as no-state religion (eg. RoK will produce +2 GPT in CoE cities)
Esus Assassins can cast Hidden for 30 GP
Nightwatch can cast Extort which feasts the city for gold instead of XP
Spell Costs scale with gamespeed
Spread Council of Esus costs 100 GP
Gibbon Goetia requires Sorcery
Nightwatch is 6/5
Shadow requires Guilds and State Religion Esus
Shadowrider requires Warhorses
To sum up Esus: I have no freakin' clue. It might be worth playing a SP game with an Esus focus to figure out if it's worth doing now or not. Lost the main benefits of super-early archmage and Nox Noctis, now have a bunch of potentially cool tricks with cash, and the potential to gain more cash
Shadows do seem like they ought to be Esus-only, yes.
If the numbers are right, Esus could synergize very well with the Lanun and our gold-rich/hammer-poor situation. Start off with Kilmorph to get the gold rolling in, then swap to Esus later on to spend it .
Or...things might be too expensive to bother with. And it does seem like a lot of micromanagement.
My gut feel at the moment says that this is the perfect game to test out the new Order. It just fits so well with a goal of owning 50 cities by midgame .
Mardoc Wrote:Speaking of Overcouncil, although it's not strictly requiring Order: it now grants +10% research, -10% maintenance, and enables the draft. Stack together Overcouncil, Courthouse, and Basilica for a total -90% maintenance!
You can actually stack more. Order shrine gives Law mana which gives another -5% and is cumulative. It's actually possible to breach 100% reduction, unfortunately negative maintenance is not refunded to the treasury
A point against Order - Great People generation and specialist farms are much easier to set up with StW, which makes AV nearly essential for Culture and Altar and a big help for the Tower.
Quote:A point against Order - Great People generation and specialist farms are much easier to set up with StW, which makes AV nearly essential for Culture and Altar and a big help for the Tower.
Surely not a big help for the Altar. Since you can't build the Altar with an evil alignment. And it might even knock down the Altar levels you already have...
Selrahc Wrote:Surely not a big help for the Altar. Since you can't build the Altar with an evil alignment. And it might even knock down the Altar levels you already have...
You can set up the Prophet farms, stockpile 6 of them in quick succession and then swap to RoK or FoL to become neutral and actually put it down. Sure, it does not help if you want to build it the slow and deliberate way, but that's neither only nor fastest way to get about it.
. ![[Image: PBEMXV%20T6%20hutgold.JPG]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16549110/PBEMXV%20T6%20hutgold.JPG)
![[Image: PBEMXV%20T6%20ruinsupply.JPG]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16549110/PBEMXV%20T6%20ruinsupply.JPG)
