Chairmen NobleHelium and Gaspar Demand Your Presence in the Collective

[NobleHelium]

Updated the sandbox. New location, since I stopped bothering with updating the 4000 BC file for now.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32632104/pbem29/...dSwordSave

More on your comments later.

[Gaspar]

First off, thanks for all the comments guys. Really, and I do think this has been misunderstood a bit what we're looking for, particularly what I'm looking for is as many angles on everything as possible. We're clearly the underdogs in this game, so just making a plan and executing it isn't good enough. I want to look at a LOT of plans, then pick the best one and execute it. Its no less focused, its just about taking a bit longer to make a decision. Ultimately, the microgods to the left are more likely to win the game. But lets give 'em hell, shall we?



err I mean...

Ok, first:

What do you want to do?

1. Get GLH.
2. Get Pyramids.
3. Expand and forgo all wonders.

The first two both need Fishing -> Sailing as well as Masonry. The third might not need Sailing and certainly not Masonry. All 3 are helped by Pottery, though realistically if you go for Pyramids you will not work the cottages for several turns I think.

Actually this is really the part that keeps bugging me. I feel like we're pursuing what I would consider a sub-optimal tech path to either hook up stone for henge or land stone for mids. The appeal of the GLH plan is that while we need the same techs, we don't have to divert resources in the same manner. Also Masonry doesn't need to be in until quite literally the turn we start building GLH.

Also, if mackoti is the Ind-civ he will go for the Pyramids, I'm sure. I take it he has stone as well, so I don't think you can build it faster then he will. Especially as he (from all I can read from the demos) is the only one settling the other PH, giving him 6 happy without another city (ivory). On the other hand, that also means he probably can't go for GLH at the same time and everyone else has no Ind-bonus, similar to you, right?

One would assume he will go mids. But one would also assume both Seven and Lewwyn have reasons to want to go there as well. Which is why it is equal parts very appealing and completely unappealing. While I agree that its probably true that they have stone, we don't know this for sure. Not only is it off-shore, but its possible they don't explore the area it is in until later. Also it could be a stone/marble split, and if that's the case, we're eschewing our advantage by skipping the stone wonders. Not saying its wrong to do so, but it is something else to consider.

Lastly, expanding is nice, but I really miss the great sites which need to be expanded too like right now. Not that expansion in itself is bad, just I don't see it as a winning tactic as the land itself is not good enough to give you enough of an edge - you probably run pretty quickly into the issue that maintenance is too high to bear for rather mediocre sites to be settled.

Don't disagree here either, though I do think the furs city in particular is pretty damned good. I'm concerned about losing claims in the likely to be contested tundra hub and possibly contested floodplains area.

So, from all that, I personally would try for GLH. If you want that, you should probably settle that (crap) grassland tile below the sheep to your northeast. With T25 border pop from the cap you have 6 forests in the culture radius of that city. And working sheep + PH + GLH should get you 9 hammers a turn. Aided by 78 hammers from chops thats 6 turns for the GLH. Playing it through quickly that should get you GLH by T40. Maybe you can get it earlier if you go for BW before Sailing so that you can accumulate some whip overflow. You'd probably need to get the settler before the T23 I have set it up with, due to the needed time to grow back after the whip.

I like the plan, though that is a ton of risk. Pottery comes in next turn, then we go to AH. BW is the current plan after that but somewhere around that time is when we need to decide finally.

Lastly, I want to say that everyone's been very helpful and Serdoa you in particular have been great at raising some interesting counterpoints. Really appreciate the help.

[NobleHelium]

So we played turn 10.

Warrior found nothing, scout found mostly nothing.



However you do see plains in the fog there, and looking at the map, it's mirrored with our plains. So you see there's a six-tile stretch of tundra, and then plains for each player on the either side. Presumed center line is as shown. That got me thinking a bit, and I looked at our land...



The plains area corresponds roughly to a 10x10 box. Since I estimate the map to be 40x40, give or take two tiles, this means the players cannot be laid out in a line horizontally or vertically. It is still possible that we're in a staggered diagonal line, but given that we see plains to our west there I think a square formation is very likely. 6 tiles of tundra between the boxes leaves 14 tiles in the other direction, so the flood plains may be less contested than the tundra.



We finished Pottery as you can see. Hopefully N7 will finish AH in 1-2 turns and save 5-6 beakers for us.

[Gaspar]

On a related note, if we are not going for Stonehenge we need some way to put culture in our new cities. Building an EXP granary in each right off the bat would be the preferable option.

Any estimate on how far away N7 is?

I think if we skip Stonehenge we'll go for religion. Nobody wants to build monuments.

My current theory is all 4 start blobs spill in to the hub, so thats my thought on N7s location.

[Mardoc]

My current theory is all 4 start blobs spill in to the hub, so thats my thought on N7s location.

Hang on - why would Commodore bother with toroidal if there's one central hub? Just for naval warfare? Only if it's naval, then he wouldn't put in ice blockers.

I bet there's someone to find to the southeast, too.

[NobleHelium]

There is likely more than one hub. The other hub is probably jungle, past the flood plains. The southeast is the same as the northwest.

I think our chances of getting Stonehenge are quite high. The players in the game just aren't going to build it that early. And yeah, GLH after that is partially because we'd have the techs already, and it's not likely to be as contested as the Pyramids.

[Serdoa]

There is likely more than one hub. The other hub is probably jungle, past the flood plains. The southeast is the same as the northwest.

I think our chances of getting Stonehenge are quite high. The players in the game just aren't going to build it that early. And yeah, GLH after that is partially because we'd have the techs already, and it's not likely to be as contested as the Pyramids.

Are you sure that after getting SH at T38 you'll get GLH at like T50+? Maybe you should get Pyramids as well?

Yes, I know, I sound negative. I'm sorry. I wish you the best luck for that plan, but I'd really like to hear your rationale why you think that it will work.

[NobleHelium]

It's true, I'm not very confident about landing GLH. I believe your plan involves us building it in the second city, which we would plant in the forest area, correct? While I do agree that will probably net us GLH, it feels a lot like what regoarrarr did in PB4. Definitely not to that extent, but my impression right now is that it would stunt our growth too much. Our vague GLH plan right now is chopping it with Mathematics at ~T50, yeah. It might be foolish to think it'll still be available by then - but if you compare to PBEM 23, where it was built on T46 (I think) - the odds aren't that bad considering people started with coastal capitals in that game, and we don't here.

Stonehenge will probably move up to T37 at least, all things considered. We're likely to get research discounts on some of the techs, and we're mostly research limited (Masonry) for it.

[Mardoc]

Well - it looks like we've degenerated into 'yes it will'/ 'no it won't'.

Us lurkers, with admittedly less information than you, think there's no way you'll land either wonder with your current plans. You think you will. Neither of us really has any way to prove our point, short of playing the next 30 turns and seeing what happens.

So what's the point of continuing to discuss? I don't have anything new to add; by the time we know it'll be too late to change path.

I'm going to keep my mouth shut for a while, unless I see something worth pointing out on a different subject, like map speculation.

[NobleHelium]

I don't mean to be dismissive or anything. I just felt like I hadn't responded to your comments thus far, so I gave you my perspective on things. We're definitely not married to either plan, and definitely not to the post ~T40 plan. Mostly we're waiting to see where horse and copper are. Hopefully horse is somewhere in the capital, preferably next to the cows - being able to use that instead of the plains hill tile should speed things up considerably.