Cyneheard Wrote:We found a changelog errors in the Poppable techs section:
Masonry, Writing, and Priesthood can also be popped. That restricts hut pops to "cheap" techs that don't include the 3 religious techs. The mod itself is unchanged, we just had not recorded this properly in the changelog.
Financial: +1 commerce on all non-river tiles that have 2+ commerce. +100% production of banks. Remember: A Golden Age cannot trigger Financial's bonus yield (as in the base game).
Expansive: No longer gets double-speed granaries, but gets double-speed grocers. +35% Worker Production, +35% work boat production.
Creative: Loses cheap Libs, still has +2 culture per city, half price theatres, Colosseums.
Charismatic: +2 happiness, but no longer gets +1 happy from Monuments.
Protective: Plus double-speed granaries, but loses double speed castles and drill 1 on archery and gunpowder units.
Imperialistic: Double-speed Custom Houses (At least this gives Imp something on water maps. For flavor, Custom Houses are very mercantile, which is what 17th century Imperialism was). +60% Settler Production.
Organized: Gains double speed libraries.
Civs:
Rebalancing:
Inca: Terraces now give +1 culture, Quechua loses combat 1.
Byzantium: Cataphracts are 11 strength.
Khmer: Ballista Elephants are 8 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, +25% vs. Knights, and still target Mounteds outside of a city (this buff was to make them better than regular WE against their nemesis, Knights).
Sumeria: Vultures now get +30% vs. Melee.
India: The Fast Worker is now 2 moves, but starts with Mobility (-1 Terrain Movement Costs), and now starts with Mysticism/Wheel, instead of Mysticism/Mining (slower start).
Celts: Dun now gives G2, not G1.
Portugal: Feitoria now costs 120h, from 180h.
Rome: Preat S7. Forum increased to +35% GPP generation.
Persia: Immortal is now a S5 spear replacement.
Carthage: Cothon decreased to 80 hammers. Numidian cav increased to S6, C1, loses melee bonus and F1 (and innate retreat chance).
France: Salon +1 free spec, -1 artist.
Germany: UU is now the Kanone, a cannon but costs 80h (down from 100h).
US: UU: Minuteman, Rifle replacement, starts with Guerilla 1, Woodsman 1. UB: Mall, Grocer replacement, +1 happy from deer, sugar, Hit (Musical, Movie, Single).
Japan: UB: Pagoda: Observatory replacement, +10% hammers.
Civics:
Police State: Now Medium Cost (down from High).
Vassalage: Now provides free support for military units as well (meaning Pacifism is cheaper), and is Medium Upkeep.
Slavery: 30h for the 1st pop, 20h for the 2nd pop and subsequent pops. So, 30/50/70/90. On Quick speed, that's 20/33/46/60.
Serfdom: +75% Worker Speed, +1h for Watermills and Windmills.
Free Market: No longer provides -25% Corporate Costs. Now provides +25% Trade Route Yield.
Environmentalism: No longer provides +25% Corporate Costs, or +2 commerce to windmills. Provides +1 gold per specialist, +1c to farms and pastures, +2c to forest preserves, and Low upkeep. Swapped with Free Speech. Now available at Liberalism.
Free Speech: Now High Upkeep, swapped with Environmentalism. Now available at Scientific Method.
Wonders:
Rushmore: Now -50% WW (from -25%).
Red Cross: 200h.
West Point: 550h, +5XP. Now requires a lvl 5 unit (17XP/13XP for Charismatic).
Great Lighthouse: Now +1 trade route instead of +2 trade routes, enabled at Masonry, but needs lighthouse and Sailing (no functional change in the tech requirements but makes F6 look less cluttered).
SoZ: no WW effect. Now +3XP, 200 hammers, no building prerequisites.
Cristo: +200% SPI production, -50% Anarchy instead of -100%.
The Internet: now a wonder. 2k cost, +15% beakers in every city. No longer a project
SDI: No longer intercepts nukes (irrelevant as nukes no longer).
Base unit changes:
War Elephants: now 7 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, and +25% vs. Knights.
SAM Infantry: 75% interception chance (up form 40%)
Mobile SAM: 80% interception chance (up from 50%). No longer requires Oil.
Destroyer: now enabled at Artillery (not Combustion) (requires Oil OR Uranium)
Transport: now enabled at Artillery (not Combustion) (requires Oil OR Uranium)
Mobile Artillery: can now load guided Missiles and Tac Nukes (as Submarines and Missile Cruisers do). No longer require oil.
Gunships decreased to 3 moves.
Scouts: Enabled at Animal Husbandry, NOT Hunting.
ICBM: No longer unlimited range, but long enough so that they will out distance your army and navy easily, and they can be rebased. Loses the nuke tag. Does not need Manhattern project to be built.
iCost: 900h
iAirCombatLimit: 75
iAirCombat: 160
iCollateralDamageLimit: 75%
iCollateralDamageMaxUnits: 12
iAirRange: 36
Tactical Nukes: no longer nukes according to the code, now S80 1shot units that can bombard units, cause collateral damage to 5 units, cannot be intercepted. Cost 300 hammers. Loses the nuke tag. Does not need Manhattern project to be built. Full list of changes:
iCost: 300h
iAirCombatLimit: 75
iAirCombat: 80
iCollateralDamageLimit: 75%
iCollateralDamageMaxUnits: 5
iAirRange: 4
Guided Missiles: can bombard units, tiles and cultural defence, cause collateral damage to 2 units, cannot be intercepted. Cost 75 hammers. Full list of changes (underline means original stat, for comparison):
iCost: 75h
iBombRate: 16
iAirCombatLimit: 75
iAirCombat: 40
iCollateralDamage: 100
iCollateralDamageLimit: 50%
iCollateralDamageMaxUnits: 1
iAirRange: 4
Flanking:
Horse Archer (and replacements): do 50% flanking damage to Catapults and Trebuchet.
Knight (and replacements): do 50% flanking damage to Catapults and Trebuchet.
Cuirassier (and replacements): do 50% flanking damage to Catapults and Trebuchet and Cannon.
Cavalry (and replacements): do 50% flanking damage to Catapults and Trebuchet and Cannon.
Gunships: do 50% flanking damage to Cannon, Artillery and Trebuchet.
Buildings:
Jails: now -50% War Weariness.
Castles (and replacement UB): no longer decrease bombardment rate of catapults or trebuchets.
Barracks: increased cost to 60 hammers, +1 culture.
Technology:
Hunting: enables pastures, cost increased by 50% from 40 to 60. No longer enables camps.
Animal Husbandry: enables camps, and scouts. No longer enables pastures.
Archery: base tech cost decreased by two thirds, from 60 to 40
Espionage:
Switch Civic and Switch Religion now require Future Tech.
Spies now spawn with "Secretive", and cannot see tiles except the one they're standing on.
The No Espionage game option now works properly:
GSpy points are converted into Great Merchant points.
Espionage no longer gets converted into culture.
Cultural expansion now happens at normal values.
Spies cannot be built.
Graphs are always visible on contact.
Tile Changes:
Watermills: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Rep Parts.
Workshops: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Chemistry.
Mines: +1h at Rep Parts.
Whaling Boats: Enabled at Sailing, not Optics. Otherwise unchanged.
Oil Wells: Now requires 3t on Normal speed (instead of 10t).
Game Mechanics:
The Draft: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 7 instead of size 5 (So size 9 to draft a rifle, size 8 to draft a musket).
Corporations: Completely removed from the game.
Culture Victory: 33K, 50K, 75K, 150K on Quick/Normal/Epic/Marathon.
Miscellaneous:
Coastal Blockade now has a range of 1 square around the blockader, instead of 3 squares
AP Resolutions: Declare War (on a non-member), Force Peace (between two members), and Assign City are no longer eligible resolution actions.
Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).
Hut techs: Can only gain techs from the first two rows of the tech screen
Addendum: These changes are only present in the Tech Trading version of the mod.
Tech Trading:
Known Tech Bonus changed to 50 (up from 30), enabled by Tech Trading (so there is no Known Tech Bonus until you research Paper)
Alphabet no longer enables tech trading, allows Open Borders
Writing enables Map trading, no longer enables OB
Paper enables Tech trading, no longer enables Map Trading. Requires Metal Casting, Literature and Code of Laws as mandatory prerequisites.
Corporation enables Tech Trading (and increases Known Tech Bonus by 50%)
Scientific Method enables Tech Trading (and increases Known Tech Bonus by 50%)
Cost of Education, Gunpowder, Printing Press and Nationalism increased by 50%
Cost of all subsequent techs increased by 100%
Techs prior to Paper in the tech tree can no longer be traded:
The untradeable techs are as follows: Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining, Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Polytheism, Masonry, Horseback Riding, Priesthood, Monotheism, Bronze Working, Writing, Metal Casting, Iron Working, Aesthetics, Mathematics, Alphabet, Monarchy, Compass, Literature, Calendar, Construction, Currency, Machinery, Drama, Engineering, Code of Laws, Feudalism, Optics, Music, Philosophy, Civil Service, Theology, Divine Right, Paper, Guilds, Banking
Big and Small script, with islands amidst continents, low sea level.
Large, ideally 10 or so players)
Random leader/civs
Random events on
Huts on
Barbs on
CTON (AI diplo only)
Quick speed
Tech trading ON (PBEM 20-esque)
Prince or Monarch difficulty
Double moves are okay, but wait 2 hours in between turns (al la PB7)
* Everyone has an early strategic resource (horse/copper/iron) but not necessarily more than one. This didn't require any editing.
* Everyone has a land tile that's 4f or better when improved with ancient era techs only. This required turning a single tile to grassland.
Vassal states are off; speed is normal.
Ceiliazul - Louis XIV of Egypt
Plako - Mao Zedong of Spain
Commodore - Tokugawa of Zulu
Cyneheard - Lincoln of Byzantium
Dazed/Scooter - Stalin of Vikings
Pindicator/Regoarrarr - Bismarck of Ethiopia
Azza - Shaka of India
Yuri - Kublai Khan of Netherlands
Krill - Brennus of Aztec
BrickAstley - Suleiman of Sumeria
OK, let's go through the leader/civ combos and see what's changed from Vanilla:
Ceiliazul - Louis XIV of Egypt - lost cheap libs
Plako - Mao Zedong of Spain - lost cheap castles, D1 on archery/gunpowder units, now +35% on workers and work boats, gained cheap grocers
Commodore - Tokugawa of Zulu - lost cheap castles, D1 on archery/gunpowder units, gained cheap granaries, (barracks now 60h, +1 culture per turn)
Cyneheard - Lincoln of Byzantium - lost +1 happy from monuments, now +2 happy/city. Cataphract -1 strength to S11.
Dazed/Scooter - Stalin of Vikings - (barracks now 60h, +1 culture per turn)
Pindicator/Regoarrarr - Bismarck of Ethiopia - lost cheap granaries, now +35% on workers and work boats, gained cheap grocers
Azza - Shaka of India - lost cheap granaries, now +35% on workers and work boats, gained cheap grocers, (barracks now 60h, +1 culture per turn). Fast worker 2 moves, gained mobility.
Yuri - Kublai Khan of Netherlands - lost cheap libs, (barracks now 60h, +1 culture per turn)
Krill - Brennus of Aztec - lost +1 happy from monuments, now +2 happy/city.
BrickAstley - Suleiman of Sumeria - gained cheaper settlers, vulture now +30% against melee.
As is see it, there are 3 players that have not got true early game traits (Cyneheard CHM/PHI, Dazed/scooter AGG/IND, and myself CHM/SPI) but we all have something to help us early on. Me and Cyneheard don't have to fight over Henge with the IND players, Dazed/scooter have barracks that can pop borders so don't have to tech Myst, but are IND so could get Henge if they wanted.
The other players have mixture of early/late traits, with the exception of Plako (EXP/PRO), and there aren't any FIN leaders :D
Seven, you were right, this map (and I actually like it if you randomized 50 times looking for interesting leader/civ combos and a good map) is looking promising.
No real Synergy here, with CRE and a monument UB, OTOH, he has WC, the best UB for popping out a Prophet, free border expansions and cheaper wonders. I see a reasonable strategy in the early as going for an early religion, with the Oracle for *something* as the end product and using the GP points from that an an obelisk to get a shrine up. This is all the same basic strategy as vanilla BtS, but then, it's not actually that weak a combination.
I think I'm gonna just ignore him as a major threat. He is just another player affecting my game...
Plako - Mao Zedong of Spain - lost cheap castles, D1 on archery/gunpowder units, now +35% on workers and work boats, gained cheap grocers.
Mao has always been the butt of jokes about EXP leaders, but not any more! Now he gets faster work boats builds, faster worker builds, and still has the cheap granary. Plus CG1 archers to just flood his cities with spam that you can't deal with, so I think "ye olde" expansion game is still gonna work well here, and Spain is, well, Spain, but there isn't any synergy between Spain and PRO because PRO lost cheap castles. I think this is one of the more balanced picks, by a player that knows what he is doing, and you basically don't bother every attacking Plako. I suspect Plako is just going to try and grow and be an economic leader and control the game from the front. No idea how he gets there, there are too many options.
I'll probably have to play the long game to beat Plako, focus on trying to keep up and just try to abuse my civics to keep him off balance and stay the course.
Commodore - Tokugawa of Zulu - lost cheap castles, D1 on archery/gunpowder units, gained cheap granaries, (barracks now 60h, +1 culture per turn)
Really nice combo here. His UB which he has double production of gives him -20% maintenence, +1 cpt, and 3XP on his units that already start with C1 or CG1...and he has good growth potential from PRO in the cheap granaries, just a really nice all round early game pick, with two great early game food techs in AH and Hunting. I fully expect Commodore to grow and settle widely, but he isn't going to give up anything he settles without a fight, wow will he have an advantage in those fights.
I'll have to fight him on the water to really get an advantage.
Cyneheard - Lincoln of Byzantium - lost +1 happy from monuments, now +2 happy/city. Cataphract -1 strength to S11.
Charismatic phracts, available right before tech costs double, and no tech trading beforehand to get you there. No need to grab Henge (beyond the normal reason...). Though there is a reason most people don't pick Lincoln, he is gonna be slow, and there isn't an easy way to pop borders. Definitely one of the weaker leaders, but the civ isn't really much of a push over, when the UU comes in at Strength 14.3 with C3...or they can be 13.2 with Amphib promo. And he has 3 promo boats.
I imagine a shrine for a religion and a bunch of settled GS might keep be rather strong way to keep up in tech and get through to the beating the crap out of people stage of the game.
Dazed/Scooter - Stalin of Vikings - (barracks now 60h, +1 culture per turn)
So, let's see, no economic traits, a scout start and the cheapest techs in the game at Fishing and Hunting? Wrong! Ability to make pastures on t0,
Pindicator/Regoarrarr - Bismarck of Ethiopia - lost cheap granaries, now +35% on workers and work boats, gained cheap grocers
Poor rego, getting Bismark...for the third time in 2 years.
I'm not actually sure of this pairing, I don't think it's great - it has no synergy, but each of the individual parts aren't bad. I'd probably not run though Guilds to gunpowder for the UU, and just treat the civ as blank. rego is probably going to want to go Oracle>MC>Collosus, and it'll probably be the most reasonable plan they come up with.
I'd only try to stop them by short circuiting the Oracle by taking it for CoL (for caste as an easy method of popping borders). I'll have to see what comes up.
Azza - Shaka of India - lost cheap granaries, now +35% on workers and work boats, gained cheap grocers (barracks now 60h, +1 culture per turn). Fast worker 2 moves, gained mobility.
Ah, a good MMers dream...for Azza, who doesn't MM, that will be fun. And he doesn't have cheap granaries, so he needs to try and abuse the FW to really get ahead. but hey, this is a map based on naval power, I don't expect the military uses of the FW to be at the forefront.
Yuri - Kublai Khan of Netherlands - lost cheap libs, (barracks now 60h, +1 culture per turn)
Ah, alas, poor Kublai, the opposite of Mao, Kublai got nerfed by losing cheap libs, but gained slightly more expensive barracks that give him culture which he doesn't need, OTOH, he gets the late game advantage of evil bastard EIM as a galleon replacement and extra hammers on a potentially quite water map. *shrug* didn't work for Dave in PBEM17, but that was probably because he messed around a lot with his tile improvements. Here, I dunno.
I'm gonna want to get the frigates into the water, and stick the the naval plan from there on in - remove his coastal cities from the map and he isn't a threat.
BrickAstley - Suleiman of Sumeria - gained cheaper settlers, cheap custom houses, vulture now +30% against melee.
Um, what?
I'd probably be best off by trying force him to expand horizontally so he has to get gold multipliers up and running and delay making those cheap city improvements.
Honestly, I was thinking about what leaders I would get, and what I'd like to play, and not play...and I came to the conclusion that I'd prefer to not play anything I've played before. But I've played every trait once now so I'm going to have to replay something.
CHM is always that much better on water maps because of the boat boost, and hell you get +2 happy, that's actually good in either high food (because you can slave harder (stacking 1 or 2 pop slaves) or low food starts (because you can just grow to the happy cap and work a bunch of hills with a cottage or 3 thrown in).
Quote:I think the value of traits depends alot too of the type of the game, for example if its Cton game I think your opinion on spiritual its totaly wrong, because there you realy can't plan too much in adavance because someone can atack you with galeons and screw your plan to get liberalism in 6 turns, so switching between slavery and caste sytem its very useful.And spiritual save alot in the beggining too: revolt to slavery, revolt to organizat religion, converting to a religion to gain happines.After playing some games without diplomacy if someone would put me to pick just one trait that would be spiritual.
I agree with him that if there is any single trait I would pick, it is SPI, simply for the flexibility it gives you. You will rarely get more than 3 GA (4 with Taj) in a game, so while you can store GP to change civics, you also have to plan production and tech needs around the GA. SPI doesn't. SPI does whatever it wants. And no one can try to invade you because you are in crap civics for war, you can just switch back and beat the ever living day lights out of people.
The downside is you have to be able to plan ahead, and to micromanage. I used to be able to do that quite well, back in the day, and I do intend to relearn those skills.
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
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