Alliance Admissions

[mucco]

Cmon people... don't be so rude please...

So I take it this is about perception. I see that as just more bs trying to fool people, while, it does nothing for equality? I see it cleaner and more honest to just have RB (since Arch and probably Fail has no problem with it) host the alliance forum for simplicity sake.
[...]I still fail to see the logic how it improves equality. It’s just another perception at best. The person who owns the domain still has the ultimate power.

It isn't just about perception, while it plays a role nevertheless. Why should a new forum do nothing for equality? The admin thing is important to me: are you going to give an admin status to one member of each guild? Yes? So arch could admin RBCiv... not going to work. No? Then what can they become? Mods are not equal to admins, and new guilds could, and maybe will complain.
A stand-alone forum could have as many admins as guilds. That's more simple than a sub-forum of RB cluttered with all sorts of things that don't appear elsewhere here, like private sections, section mods, apply threads and all sorts of these things... stuff I wouldn't want to see here. Let's move every mess away and keep this place purely a RB base, no? Why not?

Ultimate power of the owner? I don't follow you here, KoP. One could host and not be admin I believe, so what power would he/she have? We just get to find someone with enough common sense to be able to handle this equality stuff, and it doesn't look like a hard thing to me.

Let me see how this goes.
Moo has a domain, a domain name he likes, one that he likes enough to have paid for domain registration and kept up the payment for it, for however many years he has had it. Pretend he is willing to give that all up and transfers ownership to someone. Okay, the legal paper work isn’t all that much. But now we have to go through a long discussion and vote who will inherit the domain. Who is also willing to pay for the upkeep for the site(domain name renewal, site hosting, and/or any software needed).

And you see this as an easy thing, how? And what does that do for equality? We are still back to square one. The new owner of the domain still has the ultimate power.

Long discussion and vote? Don't we just need someone in another guild willing to maintain the forum? And about the money, if the other guilds want the forum when we leave, they'll pay for it, like you do. Else, they won't have their forum. I don't see the problem.

It is easier than filling up this forum with non-RB stuff, IMHO. And more equal in terms of power in the forums, if people can use some of their common sense. Don't tell me you all don't use it here!

Again, the person who owns the domain still has the ultimate power. So yeah, they are the same thing as far as equality is concerned.

Another thing to add here: do we want equality or not? If I were in another guild, it would be different to me to be in a ZoS-like forum (such an RB sub-forum looks a lot like it in regard of power differences), or in a place where I know my leader has the same power as others. I haven't enough knowledge of forum hosting mechanisms, but I do have some experience in both forum administrating and site hosting. I guess it isn't all that different. And I'd say that a hoster who isn't an admin has little power over the forum... surely a lot less than an admin here would have over this subforum.

So basically all this bs comes down to: how is cluttering and changing the face of part of RB forums easier than forming a clean alliance domain? And, how would you create this "equality" between guilds in the subforum (technical question, not rhetorical)?

Now that Moo ragequit the guild… need I say more?
KoP

Erm... you did like the same thing a couple weeks ago! Am I wrong or currently two non-members are fighting over the guild's future?

[theGrimm]

Sorry, I don’t quite understand your stance here. Correct me if I am wrong, I am guessing you are saying:
Since if someone forgets to delete the thread, the new guild will see it, and there be drama.
So don’t bother to delete the thread, and let there be drama.

I wasn't very clear; it was a half-suggestion: That leaving it up to a person to remember to delete is not ideal. But, admittedly, I can't think of a way to make it work. You can't make it a permanently private subforum that only some members have access to (the whole equality thing). So having someone delete it is the best half option.

As for the whole perception thing, yes, it's ultimately BS. Logically, I accept that. So personally, I don't care much where it goes. But as this thread has already clearly demonstrated, perception has power. We can put the alliance forum as a subforum of RB, but based on my experience of people, I think it's going to bite us in the ass.

But let me put it this way. If you believe that it doesn't REALLY make any difference, then why not concede it to some other alternative domain. It won't affect you, but it will make some other people feel better.

Heck, even if it's a sub domain of RB. It's just a perception, after all.

[Miss Arctic Wind]

Now that Moo ragequit the guild… need I say more?
KoP

you rage quitted too..and obviously thought you had a say in things even tho you were not in the guild anymore...that leads me to belive that moo still have a say in things as well...or isnt he equal to you?

[Sciros]

Don't set up a separate Alliance forum. Somebody is going to have to be owner, administrator, etc.
It's a big hassle and I don't even *want* any part of it, so if you were thinking of somehow "creating equality" by giving some members of each guild admin privileges, I doubt anyone in Arch would want any part of it. So, that won't work. It's also a complete trifle. The amount of "equality" this would suggest, let alone actually foster, is at best minimal.

Let's be reasonable. You are worrying about initial perception! Do we even WANT a guild here that doesn't do any investigation past its initial perception? Are we afraid that the applicant guild will see what essentially is a gameplay-suggested semblance of order and think "oh wow this is a dictatorship" and not enter any discussion with the alliance? Do you not trust yourselves to successfully explain to the guild the necessities of doing some things in a centralized manner? do you not trust the applicant guild to understand this? It's like we're planning on dealing with rabid anarchists, who we are for some reason *desperate* to play with!

Let's assume we'll want reasonable, intelligent people on board, and stop worrying about sacrificing "perception" for efficiency.

The ultimate goal is to enjoy GW, and to enjoy it on equal terms with everyone else. Let us as an alliance focus on equality in the game, and doing what we can to facilitate *that,* rather than waste our efforts on decentralizing things what would *work far better* if done traditionally.

After all, I can argue for the virtues of being organized in a way that is both familiar to and expected (according to GW's guild-alliance structure) by incoming guilds at least as easily as one would argue for the virtue of "perception of equality."

[KingOfPain]

I am glad you and Grimm are able to carry on a civil discussion!

First, let me make some clarifications since some people seem to not read properly, or just trying to attack me no matter what I say:

- I am entitled to my opinions - just as you are to yours.

- Many things I have said have been expressed by other members as well, in one form or another. – I am not always alone as some try to insinuate that I dictate .

- Many things I have suggested got shot down. I don’t whine about it. I don’t dictate what people want.

- For the last 2 weeks, some members have taken and created every opportunity to throw snide remarks at me. - It is so transparent I don’t even find a need to defend myself against such childish attempts.

- I did not say the alliance forum has to be hosted in under this forum. - I acknowledged if Arch or Fail wants to host it, we can discuss it. So no power grab there. Also keep in mind that while we are using the RB forum as an example, it might as well read Arch’s or Fail’s.

- I am just more comfortable with a host who has earned my trust. – I don’t know too much about Fail atm unless they speak up (their choice), but Arch/Sciros is one who has earned my respect. He is levelheaded and capable of carrying out civil conversations, even during the Drasca/Hureg episode when he was a ZoS officer.




Now… I don’t think we are on the same page here maybe that’s the problem. Just so we are talking about the same thing.

Mucco:
The admin thing is important to me: are you going to give an admin status to one member of each guild? Yes? So arch could admin RBCiv... not going to work. No? Then what can they become? Mods are not equal to admins, and new guilds could, and maybe will complain.

Why do we need more admins here? I don’t delete posts here, nor administrate member controls other than those obvious spambots. I also put up forums by requested. All the forums are open, no need for any admins/mods. The only private forum we will need is one where we discuss alliance applications and the threads are deleted afterward. I am okay to delete such threads if that’s the consensus of opinion.

I have a feeling you are talking about a totally different setup where you would need 4 admins. Lets hear the setup

Mucco:
Ultimate power of the owner? I don't follow you here, KoP. One could host and not be admin I believe, so what power would he/she have?

The owner has the power to unplug the whole domain. The owner has the power to unplug any sub domain or just deny access to anyone. So ya, I can make you General Mucco Of The Most Supreme Army Of The Universe, but I can pull the plug on you the next second.

Grimm:
Heck, even if it's a sub domain of RB. It's just a perception, after all.

That is also an option worth discussing.




KoP

[Sciros]

KoP, I think mucco was talking about a setup where we have a separate bulletin board altogether, administered by representatives of each guild.

For a reason such as having a separate "Alliance-specific" identity, a big meeting area for the Alliance, etc., that's not a bad idea. I've seen Alliances have entire separate sites apart from the member guilds. But, that takes a lot of work and I think it's all administered by a leading guild or two anyway.

My thoughts are, if we are talking about decentralizing something that requires actual *work,* it's probably not worth decentralizing. How much would all our guildmates actually benefit?

Really, I think we (Arch) are just fine with RB being the "leader guild" when it comes to all the administrative stuff like maintaining a forum section, etc. You can feel free to dump some of that on us ^_^ but plz if you do it, do it in the spirit of laziness rather than promoting equality!!

That is, I think that there is definitely a point whe the communication and coodrination required due to decentralizing duties in the spirit of equality starts to outweigh the benefits our members would really be getting from it.

[theGrimm]

Like I said, it probably won't bug people right now (especially when equality = work ), but it's a big potential stumbling stone down the line (if some friction develops, someone gets to play the "RB wants to be boss" card.)

KoP has valid points about trusting the site host (ultimately, the host has "power" to kill the site if he should like), but if we host the alliance site in parallel to RB, rather than as a subforum, I feel as if the perception is satisfied.

[Uca Firewind]

Oh, for Heaven's sake. It really isnt' that big a deal where our alliance forums are. Are you kidding me? WTF are you people doing making this an argument? Moo, Artic, you want a separate forum, make it. I don't think anyone's saying OMFG that's a horrible idea! I think everyone's saying that's not worth the effort. And, more to the point... "*I* sure as hell am not making that kind of effort. Sucka'!" And I agree. It's just not necessary, is all. Sure, it has some really awesome perks. But I never had any problem with the way ZoS ran their forums and excluding mysterious deletes occasionally, I don't' think anyone else did either. So... why mess with something that worked? Having it on *anyone's* forum RB, Arch, Fail... who the hell cares? If they leave, it's gonna be an issue anyways, particularly if said people have accounts in the phantom guild. Everything private gets deleted after we're done with it... awesomeness. Anything public would stay public for anyone to take to the new forums if they want. No problems there, either then. Nothing lost.

It comes down to either A) a lot of work for a new person (or what? multiple new people? I don't know shit about forums, and as much as I'm willing to put work into an alliance, I'm not learning forums when there are people willing and good at it already.) or B) a little bit more work for a current admin. (At RB or Arch or Fail, or WHEREVER!)

Whatever the case may be... where is the calm, collected RB I know and love? Remember your roots! Laid-back! This just seems so unlike you guys. You'll be back to normal in no time, I have every confidence. But this is ridiculous. It's just so unimportant in the scheme of things where our forums are. Stop letting these so, so very little things end your "family" relationships with RB (and hopefully Arch and Fail, too )

[Seijin]

where is the calm, collected RB I know and love? Remember your roots! Laid-back! This just seems so unlike you guys. You'll be back to normal in no time, I have every confidence. But this is ridiculous. It's just so unimportant in the scheme of things where our forums are. Stop letting these so, so very little things end your "family" relationships with RB (and hopefully Arch and Fail, too )

I'm still here...like I said in the "introduce yourself" thread. I hate drama and no game drama is going to come my way.

I don't care where the forums are hosted. But whoever hosts it better just take care of it. That's all I ask.

Ok, again I'm kinda bored and busy and all, so I'll see you all in game when I can make it.

[WarBlade]

Whatever the case may be... where is the calm, collected RB I know and love?

Checking our watches and occasionally glancing at the subsiding furore. 8)

I'll have a crack at sorting this nonsense out later. [url="http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/warblade/images/baby_fth.jpg"]
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