[Spoiler] Any volunteers for a human sacrifice? Brennus of the Aztecs, by Krill

[antisocialmunky]

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GNAP gets furs, but I only need that happiness at Crapital, but another 15 hammer warrior will do the same under HR. But could I have used that settler somewhere else? Could I have settled more towards Pingo? Could I have built chariots to go attack the barb city or attack Pingo?

Why didn't you decide to invade Pingo or the barb city?

[Krill]

Why didn't you decide to invade Pingo or the barb city?

It's T86. I settled WTF?, my third city on T53. Borders popped T69, Horse hooked T72. I didn't discover the barb city until T65 though, and Pingo until T67.

If I'd absolutely beelined hooking up horses, I could have chopped out a monument and got horse hooked maybe T65ish, with horse hooked T67? But why would I have done that with no target? It's a bad play that relies on getting lucky, instead I focussed on growth and a potential Oracle build which I missed by 2 turns.

For perspective, these are the demographics from T67, compared to T86:

EDIT: That's uncomfortably close to doubling every 20 turns actually, the GNP from T67 was researching Masonary @1.4 multiplier, at 50%, compared to 0% tech at T86.

[SevenSpirits]

EDIT: That's uncomfortably close to doubling every 20 turns actually, the GNP from T67 was researching Masonary @1.4 multiplier, at 50%, compared to 0% tech at T86.

Hm let's check this with the actual output, not demos, which are a bit off. T67 it looks like you had 17 population so you appear to be netting 12f/t. Also looks like you are producing 18b/t. Demos say you are making 22h/t, we can just straight up use that.
12f 22h 18b on t67. OK. If f=8, h=5, b=3 then your output is 260.

Currently (t86) your MFG is 36. You have 32 pop so your 91 CY implies net 27f/t. And your net income looks like 44b/t. So:
27f 36h 44b on t86. If f=8, h=5, b=3 then your output is 528. i.e. you've doubled your economy in 19 turns.

According to my thread, doubling your economy in 30t or so (normal speed) would be in accordance with growing size 7ish cities onto non-river grassland tiles with early-game improvement strengths. Riverside grassland is about 60% more productive (8 points instead of 5, because of the extra beaker), which would suggest dividing the doubling time by 1.6, which for normal speed gives an expected doubling time of 18.75 turns. That fits surprisingly well. It seems most of the benefit of the resources you settle (which are just 0.5-2 per city in this land) is offsetting the investment costs of settling those new cities (settlers, military, worker labor, base city maintenance).

[antisocialmunky]

It's T86. I settled WTF?, my third city on T53. Borders popped T69, Horse hooked T72. I didn't discover the barb city until T65 though, and Pingo until T67.

If I'd absolutely beelined hooking up horses, I could have chopped out a monument and got horse hooked maybe T65ish, with horse hooked T67? But why would I have done that with no target? It's a bad play that relies on getting lucky, instead I focussed on growth and a potential Oracle build which I missed by 2 turns.

So... you're you are complaining about the opportunity cost of what would have been a lucky based play.

[Krill]

Hm let's check this with the actual output, not demos, which are a bit off. T67 it looks like you had 17 population so you appear to be netting 12f/t. Also looks like you are producing 18b/t. Demos say you are making 22h/t, we can just straight up use that.
12f 22h 18b on t67. OK. If f=8, h=5, b=3 then your output is 260.

Currently (t86) your MFG is 36. You have 32 pop so your 91 CY implies net 27f/t. And your net income looks like 44b/t. So:
27f 36h 44b on t86. If f=8, h=5, b=3 then your output is 528. i.e. you've doubled your economy in 19 turns.

According to my thread, doubling your economy in 30t or so (normal speed) would be in accordance with growing size 7ish cities onto non-river grassland tiles with early-game improvement strengths. Riverside grassland is about 60% more productive (8 points instead of 5, because of the extra beaker), which would suggest dividing the doubling time by 1.6, which for normal speed gives an expected doubling time of 18.75 turns. That fits surprisingly well. It seems most of the benefit of the resources you settle (which are just 0.5-2 per city in this land) is offsetting the investment costs of settling those new cities (settlers, military, worker labor, base city maintenance).

Thing is...nerfed slavery.

[SevenSpirits]

Thing is...nerfed slavery.

Your point?

[Krill]

...I thought your numbers were based off slaving: that's the calibration used to value food and hammers, right? So with a nerfed slavery, this game should have different values between food and hammers.

[Krill]

So... you're you are complaining about the opportunity cost of what would have been a lucky based play.

More wondering about what I'm even supposed to do with this land. I'm like...how did I get it from that start, to this CY? Just...how? Then I look at that city and I wonder just how great this civ will be mid and late game. I really need to use this early advantage to get something special.

[SevenSpirits]

...I thought your numbers were based off slaving: that's the calibration used to value food and hammers, right? So with a nerfed slavery, this game should have different values between food and hammers.

They are based off of the relative strengths of various tiles as well as slavery. Note that under the discussed circumstances (size 7 city), working a farm and slaving is almost equivalent to working a mine (yeah, I know it's a bit more efficient).

I wouldn't expect the slavery nerf to have a very big impact on your position because you have plenty of grass hills, and limited food. Slavery ensures you have efficient things to do with your food regardless of happiness restrictions, but here you don't really have a problem of food overabundance. (And of course there's being able to produce things quickly after discovering their tech, which has not had a big impact so far for you because the only critical thing you've unlocked is the granary and by definition your whips are less efficient if you don't have a granary yet, or being able to respond quickly to military threats, which I believe you haven't faced.)

[Krill]

They are based off of the relative strengths of various tiles as well as slavery. Note that under the discussed circumstances (size 7 city), working a farm and slaving is almost equivalent to working a mine (yeah, I know it's a bit more efficient).

I wouldn't expect the slavery nerf to have a very big impact on your position because you have plenty of grass hills, and limited food. Slavery ensures you have efficient things to do with your food regardless of happiness restrictions, but here you don't really have a problem of food overabundance. (And of course there's being able to produce things quickly after discovering their tech, which has not had a big impact so far for you because the only critical thing you've unlocked is the granary and by definition your whips are less efficient if you don't have a granary yet, or being able to respond quickly to military threats, which I believe you haven't faced.)

True, the point of farms is to get that next population sooner, and the one after that, and the one after that...and size 7 is exactly where my cities are fitting, so it's much more reasonable than I first thought.