Plako's comments make sense to me. Chatting with Cyneheard now (ded-lurker for us, unspoiled otherwise), and we're trying to understand what the hangup here is. Is the issue HOW Mardoc got to the desired results? Here's as vague an example as I can think of:
Let's say there's a 5F tile and a plains cow at a start. That almost meets the requirement of 5f and 4f. The result I would expect is changing the plains cow to a grass cow, thus meeting the requirement... Not added a 4f tile and leaving the plains cow. Correct?
Triple posting, sorry. If someone is flat-out stranded and unable to make contact with anyone until Astro, that's a problem. However, I don't think Big&Small islands mixed in generates stuff like that. You might get stuff like PB5 where it's difficult for a couple people pre-Astro, but that's fine and expected.
Basically, we're not getting any guidance on what the hangup here is, so it's hard for us to really figure out what to do about it. I think we can get a categorization of what type of problem this is without it being a spoiler.
Guys, since Krill was complaining, I decided to take a look, and I really think you will enjoy the game a LOT more if you play on this other map Krill showed me instead. It looks a lot more fun and also has fewer edits.
If that's the case, Pindicator and I are OK with going with the map Seven and Krill are suggesting. This is still awkward to ask players to decide on this after seeing their starts on this map, though. What's done is done though.
FWIW, I generated the map that Mardoc then altered. I've spent 4 hours regenerating maps to find ones that fit the description of what you wanted, and I think are playable (because trust me, there are a lot of maps generated with 11 players that leave someone up in the tundra). Both maps are completely random to begin with before the edits you wanted, but as Seven said, the other map just looks a lot more fun to play on.
(October 27th, 2012, 15:34)SevenSpirits Wrote: Guys, since Krill was complaining, I decided to take a look, and I really think you will enjoy the game a LOT more if you play on this other map Krill showed me instead. It looks a lot more fun and also has fewer edits.
How big of a difference are we talking about? I (have not talked to ad hoc yet) am reluctant to change at this point, but I suppose I can be convinced.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
The map Mardoc edited (names K1) is a map I gave to him as an example of what to look for. It is not what I would consider to be balanced, but it is unplayable in places. Take that to mean that it is worse than the Viking start in PB5. It's worse than mh's start in PBEM1.
The other map (named K5) is also a map I generated, and is again completely random B&S, but every start is playable, plus needed less edits than K1. It's just a better map.
FWIW, we can start to draw conclusions about player start qualities just by posts in this thread. I think that alone is an argument for moving on and using this K5 map. Also Krill's post just now sounds like we need to ditch it. I just wish we would've known this sooner rather than 12 hours after seeing our starting position, as it makes this situation way more awkward than it needs to be.
(also FWIW, start quality matters much more than leader quality in the mod, so if there truly are unplayable starts, that's an issue)
