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New Civilization 5 Expansion - Brave New World

#151
May 14th, 2013, 18:40
Merovech Offline
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Well, in vanilla civ 4, Qin's traits were financial and industrious, Mao's were expansive and philosophical, and Tokugawa's were aggressive and organized, so...yeah, I kinda see what you mean when you just compare those trait names to the BTS ones.
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1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.

2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.

3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.

4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
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#152
May 14th, 2013, 18:58
Bigger Offline
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no, protective says you are an isolationist (flavor-wise). its extrermely appropriate to Japan (who resisted western culture all the way up to WWII), and probably China too (i.e. the great wall). It would probably be appropriate to George Washington, too, not sure why he wasn't made protective.
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#153
May 14th, 2013, 19:01
Bigger Offline
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(May 14th, 2013, 17:59)SevenSpirits Wrote: I think the following traits would be more appropriate for Chinese leaders than protective:

Creative
Organized
Philosophical
Imperialistic
Financial
Industrious

I don't see how any of these traits are more appropriate for China than protective. Maybe organized, but certainly not the rest.

the trait has to be assigned to some leader if its in the game, and there is no more appropriate leaders, from a historical perspective, than the Japanese and Chinese leaders, imo.
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#154
May 14th, 2013, 19:23
SevenSpirits Offline
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"Isolationist" is hardly a positive trait though (and the mechanical lameness of the trait reflects that). Other leaders get traits that emphasize strengths of their nation, and produce benefits in-game. E.g. Elizabeth is financial and philosophical: the English people under her were rich and well-educated, is what that says (whether it's true or not). For Qin, the game is holding up "isolationism" or whatever as one of the two defining traits of the ancient Chinese. I don't think it's "appropriate" any more than "racist" or "tyrannical", with lame in-game benefits, would be appropriate traits for other leaders.
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#155
May 14th, 2013, 19:26 (This post was last modified: May 14th, 2013, 19:26 by Bigger.)
Bigger Offline
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eh, who cares.. not all leaders with national epic worthy, or even positive.. hell Stalin is in the game - there's just no "mass murderer" trait wink. If you're arguing that the trait sucks, I agree of course - but I see no problem with it from a flavor perspective - its historically accurate.

I wouldnt have a problem with Washington being protective, for the same reason. (and I'm American)
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#156
May 14th, 2013, 19:34
SevenSpirits Offline
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(May 14th, 2013, 19:26)Bigger Wrote: eh, who cares..

I care. Also, it seems like you care, given how hard you are trying to get me to not have the opinion I have. lol
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#157
May 14th, 2013, 20:32
Sisu Offline
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I agree with Seven that traits should accentuate the positive and not the negative. Isolationism is not generally viewed positively.

Then again, speaking as someone from an Eastern Orthodox background, I am super uncomfortable with having Stalin in the game, and a lot of the other leaders (Genghis Khan? Mao? Shaka?) were arguably monstrous as well. So... eh. I see Bigger's point.
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#158
May 14th, 2013, 20:53 (This post was last modified: May 14th, 2013, 20:54 by Merovech.)
Merovech Offline
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Yeah, Stalin wasn't exactly a needed leader, nor was Mao. China and Russia have plenty of other great historicla leaders who weren't mass murders. Gengis is a little different, though, imo, because there weren't any other great Mongolian leaders that also weren't into razing places. Well, at least well known ones.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.

1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.

2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.

3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.

4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
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#159
May 14th, 2013, 21:23
Bigger Offline
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stalin was the third leader, and he's a pretty significant figure in world history. hell the expansion he came with had a WWII mod smile. I think yall are being a bit pc, to be honest - I wouldnt mind a Hitler leader for germany either (as a third leader, I wouldnt take out Frederick or Bismark).

I predict the Germans would object to that the most, hehe.

I'm not sure about Mao.. I don't know as much about Chinese history. But Genghis is certainly the most important Mongol leader, and I can't imagine there are ANY other appropriate zulu leaders to use than Shaka.
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#160
May 14th, 2013, 21:32
Sisu Offline
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I guess it depends on whether you feel the objective is to have "leaders who were important" or "leaders who you're ok assuming the role of." I mean, Civ has that role-playing aspect - the start of every game says something like "[LEADER], it's your duty to lead [CIVILIZATION] to greatness!"

Stalin bothers me not because "oh, folks told me to dislike him," but because his regime killed the families of people I know.
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(March 3rd, 2012, 21:07)antisocialmunky Wrote: Civilization Economics: You have 1 Cow. You build some pastures around it to feed your people. The population grows uncontrollably. You enslave everybody and work half of them to death.
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