[SPOILERS] Krill smokes some weed - PBEM50

[Krill]

Comment on that later NH.

I do want to say that I'm not particularly happy with revealing the full BFC of the capitals after people have seen the original starting screenshots because that's a straight disadvantage to me and potentially others, but it would have been fine if that is what people had asked for prior to the start reveal. But merely revealing 1 food bonus type in the FoW is reasonable IMO, because everyone will get the same amount of information (even if someone were told that there are no more food resources in the fog, that is relevant information when considering moving the settler).

[Ceiliazul]

I apologize for the delay, and the controversy. I know there is a split vote on seeing your food resources... that sucks for everyone.

My goal is for you players to have fun, and starting on equal footing is part of that. I will make a similar post in each thread. I will take the heat if folks get mad.

Krill, your start includes wet corn.

[Krill]

Well look on the brightside I can try and out spam novice.

[Krill]

OK, Ceil and lurkers, here is where things went wrong.

No one asked for a balanced map. We asked for balanced leader/civ combinations which were posted and are fine. All the map maker had to do then was role a map that looked interesting and then post the starts. No edits needed.

The next problem was Kyan. He didn't realise that the game had started the moment the starts were posted, and wanted to change the rules mid game, after Seven explicitly asked to not post the starts until the rules were finalised. The most basic answer to this is "Tough Shit" and he should pick conservatively.

The final mistake was unilaterally posting spoiler information after 4 players specifically said they didn't want that. Whatever happens, the safest thing to do in this case is literally to do nothing. Once you did that you invalidated 4/6 players wishes and the map as well. There is no way that this map will be played on now because of what if it were meant maliciously (I know it isn't, I know you think you did the right thing) would be cheating.

So, given that several players want a new map, this, or a variation of this, is what has to happen: someone roles a new map that looks interesting. Role for a new 1st pick, and role out 12 (not 11) balanced leader and civ combos. But only after every player has agreed on what is happening. Though I suppose you could do al that behind the scenes where the players can't see to speed things up.

[pindicator]

And now we wait for Ceil to give me a start that shows 9 unfogged tiles, 9 forests and no food resources.

So you would have been okay if this had been your screenshot? I didn't read it as joking at first (and i have no idea how Ceil read it) but I thought this would not be something you would be okay with.

[Krill]

Would I have been happy? Not really, I'd have bitched in this thread, and asked for a bit of time to make the decision, but I'd have picked . I'll explain the picking process I'd have gone through in the next post.

[Krill]

• Alexander (Agg, Phi) of China (Agriculture, Mining) - Hate PHI/AGG, too slow and doubtful mid game benefits
  
• Genghis Khan (Agg, Imp) of France (Agriculture, The Wheel) - Prefer IND over AGG
  
• Asoka (Org, Spi) of Netherlands (Agriculture, Fishing)
  
• Augustus (Imp, Ind) of Babylon (Agriculture, The Wheel)
  
• Louis XIV (Cre, Ind) of Persia (Agriculture, Hunting)

• Napoleon (Cha, Org) of Rome (Fishing, Mining)
  
• Charles de Gaulle (Ind, Cha) of England (Fishing, Mining)
  
• Julius Caesar (Imp, Org) of Viking (Hunting, Fishing)
  
• Justinian (Spi, Imp) of Spain (Fishing, Mysticism) - Not going to shrine a religion for a while

• Zara Yaqob (Cre, Org) of Celts (Hunting, Mysticism)
  
• Suryavarman (Exp, Cre) of Germany (Hunting, Mining)
  
• Lincoln (Chm/PHI) of Aztec (Hunting, Mysticism)

OK, so I see 9 forested tiles, mostly grass some plains, occasional hill and no food. I then fog gaze and there are 2 scenarios: I see coastal tiles or I don't see coastal tiles. I'll explain the no coastal tiles scenario first.

1. I know that the only food resources I have can be improved by Hunting, Agri or AH. I therefore know that I need to start with either Agri or Hunting, and remove the following leaders from selection: Nappy, de Gaulle, Caesar, Justinian, because they either lack those techs or junk second techs in case of Hunting.
   
2. I know that I will need BW quickly to clear out the start, chopping isn't brilliant on quick but I need to ensure I don't get choked, so I value Mining as a potential second tech above most others: That means I value Sury and Alex highly for trait combinations.
   
3. Then I look at the leaders. I value 1 long term trait with a expansion trait most of all but will accept 2 expansion traits. Consider IMP but can't value a second city site so prefer CRE or EXP. Louis is a good choice but I know I might have to did myself out of a hole at he start and IND is therefore risky even with chops: someone else might get stone and take Mids. Zara has Myst which I can't afford to capitalise on needing BW so quickly and maybe needing to get to AH as well.
   
4. Sury sticks out: two solid traits and a great tech combo for this start, but I give up the UB and UU. I accept that and pick 1st Sury of Germany as a conservative choice and try to win the game early, focussing on turning chops into productive cities.

The coastal scenario will be in about half an hour after food.

[Krill]

The coastal scenario is actually much more difficult to pick for, and in this scenario I am assuming not coastal start, no plains hill, must waste 1 turn to move settler 1 tile, worst case scenario sort of thing. A coastal start is a pain from a tech angle because that means that not only is Fishing is an important tech, you might be forced to move adjacent to the coast to be able to hook up seafood. This makes it a gamble on where you move the settler and what techs you want, depending on the amount of coast. This is how I pick:

1. I value Fishing more highly, to the extent that I do not wish to pick Hunting except in combination with it. I also value Agriculture and Mining: If I go worker first I can theoretically chop as the first move with the worker if I need to. I value China, Rome and England the highest as civs, followed by the other Agri civs and Vikings on the outside.
   
2. For leaders, I value any leader that can alleviate the problem with food. At this point because I'm not certain of where I'm settling for food, I value the ability to get a quick second city on the coast if I settle inland away from seafood really highly: IMP, if it's with a good tech pair, is usable if I get settler at size 2 and BW first. Unfortunately there are no IMP/Mining combinations, but Caesar starts with Fishing and Hunting and Augustus with Agri, so either of those are viable, depending on if there are any 2 hammer plants and the locations of plains hill forests or plains forests for use at size 2.
   
3. I want Augustus if I want to settle in place blind and hedge that I can go either worker first or warrior>settler at size 2 with a potential slave back to size 1.
   
4. I want Caesar if I'm willing to move the scout adjacent to the coast prior to moving the settler and betting I can go work boat first, if not can settle in place and get a settler at size 2.
   
   
5. To me either is a reasonable choice depending on those hills and forests and I would pick either.
   
   
   
6. Sury is a third choice for leader if I decide to go balls deep, settle in place and risk not having any food hookable, or if I choose to scout for 2 turns prior to settling. Sometimes you have to do that.

[Krill]

And now we wait for Ceil to give me a start that shows 9 unfogged tiles, 9 forests and no food resources.

So you would have been okay if this had been your screenshot? I didn't read it as joking at first (and i have no idea how Ceil read it) but I thought this would not be something you would be okay with.

Relevant picture:

[Sisu]

Was PB5 played with a pick process, or was it randomly assigned civs/leaders?