RB Pitboss #1 Spoilers - Joai of the Incans - Krill/Memphus

[Jabah]

Being denied access to trading partners while your neighbours are going happily trading, everyone should aggree that you were almost pushed into declaring (you could almost also add that they have been stalling the discussion a lot).

I doubt they will accept peace now (or if they accept I would put that into "stalling" to wait for reinforcement) and I also doubt they will abandon sunrise too soon.

I think you should move close enough to Madrid to threaten to capture it next turn, forcing sunrise into very desesperate mesure.
Depending on the odd (and also the diplo situation) you probably should take the risk if not too bad (Madrid has culture, but the warrior will have almost 0 fortification bonus).

It also depend on how many Q you can bring soon to the party and what other evil things a WoodyII Q can do instead.

If the "alliance" remain strong, and given the oppotunity, I would raze Madrid as you will not be able to hold it. But with the razing (and sunrise kind of out), the others might start changing their mind about how involve they want to be in this war.

Key will probably be to manage to contact other players (especially the 'military' ones), tell them about the 5-alliance and invite them to the party.

[Krill]

Might have a pretty cool update up sometime this afternoon. I was supposed to be working 13 hour shifts today and tomorrow, but after seeing the doctors and being sent for a chest X ray I've been told taking the next few days off work is wise. So I'm getting my laptop, moving into the lounge in fromt of the fire, putting on teh TV and doing some planning and writing.

[Krill]

I think you made the right move. The Gang of Five offered only stick and no carrot. sunrise was the 'right' person to attack as well: I'm sure you can explain the situation to him because, as an MP guy, he would have done the same thing in your shoes.

I like that analogy. I used it in chat with regoarrarr earlier explaining my actions, then offered him an NAP until t120. I think it's fitting.

Well, if all your fears are realized and the game winds up with an unstoppable five-way alliance and a bunch of backwater civs, it's only a matter of time before fractures start to form: Even if the winner is sure to be one of a certain five, there can still only be one winner, and anyone who's not actually been eliminated at that stage can affect the outcome, if only in a spoiler role. So I don't see the game becoming boring - at least not for long.

True, but that suggests I have the other option of keeping everyone else fractured, and hoping that the UTA splits itself up earlier than it would do because each member views the others as their major threat. I've often considered this course of action in a game, but always ended up deciding that there were too few players to pull it off. But here? Maybe, depending on the responses I get from the remaining players, it could be the only semi-viable option to get into the end game.

Also, you Incans seem to provide a sure antidote for any kind of boredom! I must admit that - diplomacy aside - I really like the Krill/Memphus game thus far. You're skillfully playing the hand you're dealt (whatever you think of its quality) rapidly adapting your strategy in response to emerging situations, now racing to find the remaining civs in order to avert wars that may or may not be brewing, trying to beat the clock (of tech progress, war, or both) to find allies in someone, somewhere.... Really, what's not to like?

Thank you, I hope we can continue to provide at least some entertainment (either in this thread, or via others responses to our actions). I'm just not quite sure how long we can continue to have a major effect on the game, depending on the UTA response to the worker steal.

And the worker: I wouldn't have stolen him, but when I play games against live humans, I'm a fairly severe pacifist, and generally not interested in Winning It All. (I play variants in board games now!) The rhetoric around it (allies or enemies!) was a bit extreme, but that was here in your private thread, and maybe not quite serious. With five of the ~closest(?) players to your starting location all refusing to give you any tech trades at all, even with major beaker advantages for them ... well, that's a little ways beyond "not allies." If I was part of a five-way trade alliance and saw you coming down from the north roughly in the middle of "our" lands, I would have tried to come up with creative deals to at least make you (even if not a sixth) a "friend of the five" without undermining my five-way trades. I don't think anyone planned a Giant Anti-Krill Alliance, but regardless of intent, that seems from your descriptions to be the net effect of what was done. When they refused to trade with you at all, you had to do something - and you did.

Interestingly enough, if I were playing to "Win It All", it's debatable just how useful stealing that worker is, because I have made myself a target, at least to sunrise, even though I have destroyed his chances of winning this game already. Whether he realises this or not, I'm unsure. I think I would argue that given the (strategic) choice between two options that had similar chances of success, I'll take the more flamboyant one in these cicumstances (because it makes the game more interesting for the spectators, and for me).

But on a purely hypothetical note, if sunrise has offered me Monarchy for an NAP until t120, t130 etc, I'd probably have taken that offer, and then moved on. I think I can reach maths and alphabet by the time the UTA does it's major trade, so I'd have considered being up to 3/5 of the techs they had acceptable, especially due to the extra growth and GNP I could have had compared to them. I considered this before, but didn't dare offer it; alot of people would consider this a laughable offer, but with hindsight I think it would have favoured sunrise more than me (what is 1 tech for me extra, compared to the growth that worker would have given sunrise relative to the entire field?) Sometimes when you take large undertaking with a large payoff, paying off a few people to ensure co-operation is a good strategy.

Nothing like a shot across the bow that carries away the bowsprit when you want to make a point, I guess....

It was a shot across the bow of the frontrunners, I just clipped the bowsprite of the nearest ship to me.

So only to sunrise. To everyone else it is just a shot accross the bow...

I think it is a reasonable call, you did try, and that option exhausted, there wasn't really anything else to do other than quietly inevitably lose, but I wouldn't call it in any way diplomatic.

I'm not really sure about the wording of the second question, (in case you mean a one vs many war) but with 11 players I did expect a war to occur earlier than this.

well, I was trying to phrase it show the opposing viewpoints on the war, and I'm sure you know the quote, that War is a continuation of politics by other means - Clausewitz. I think that he was right.

I doubt they will accept peace now (or if they accept I would put that into "stalling" to wait for reinforcement) and I also doubt they will abandon sunrise too soon.

We'll see. Yesterday, after I took the worker and they sent the message declaring there refusal of my offers, I offered sunrise an NAP to turn 120. Sunrise countered with the condition:

1. Invalid if I declare on any member of the UTA

I agreed and offered him peace in game.

I think you should move close enough to Madrid to threaten to capture it next turn, forcing sunrise into very desesperate mesure.
Depending on the odd (and also the diplo situation) you probably should take the risk if not too bad (Madrid has culture, but the warrior will have almost 0 fortification bonus).

It also depend on how many Q you can bring soon to the party and what other evil things a WoodyII Q can do instead.

If the "alliance" remain strong, and given the oppotunity, I would raze Madrid as you will not be able to hold it. But with the razing (and sunrise kind of out), the others might start changing their mind about how involve they want to be in this war.

Unfortunately, he had the warrior as you noted, which has 25% city defense bonus, and 40% culture defense; I had terrible odds, so I wasn't going to risk my unit that was best suited to finding the other civs to a wild, 1 in 20 chance of victory, after I had already taken 1 worker. I sent the worker back up north, along with the Quechua. I'm wondering if I dare try to get the worker back home, instead of the safe option of simply deleting it, because I don;t want to risk someone capturing it back (and if I do delete it, no one can ask me to return it to sunrise).

Realistically the only unit I would have been able to attack with was that woody 2 Quechua, don't forget this is a huge map. There aren't any realistic chances of holding anyone elses land until the medi era.

[Krill]

The email exchange:

Krill and Memphus,

We wanted to send you a formal response to your diplomatic overtures.

As you have deduced the five of us settled into an early agreement to trade techs and maintain good relations. While nothing too formal has been agreed upon, we have agreed to the tech trade that you are aware of and a mutual defensive pact. After looking at the tech tree, and discussing things at length, we feel we are served best with a five-way trade, and adding a sixth partner isn't in our best interest. This decision isn't easy, as we recognize the skill of your team, but we feel a five-way deal works best.

Sincerely,

-Broker, League of Lin, Regoarrarr, sunrise, and ZPV

Not entirely unexpected. Are you willing to agree to an NAP treaty until, say, t120 then? That would make it 65 turns long, and realistically I doubt regoarrarr, ZPV and Broker are ever going to be in a position to hurt me until that time, so it probably helps you a fair bit, and finally makes me life that little bit more certain.

Krill

Krill,

Is this a single-player style NAP where if you declare war on a third party the NAP is void? I'm happy to agree to one like that. I'll add as a bonus that if you declare on someone outside the tech trading group I'm in I won't declare war on you through t120.

-sunrise

I agree with what you have written. Consider it signed?

Krill

Then a chat with regoarrarr, the last bit I didn't see until this morning:

2:57 PM me: hi mate, jsut a heads up
2:58 PM Dan: hey
me: next 2 days I'm working 13 hour shifts
so I'll only be able to play the turn twice a day
at specific times
same for rplying to diplo
Dan: ok
this is the downside of being available nonstop these past 2 days?
me: kinda
2:59 PM I think you might understand now why I might have seemed impatiant; can't do anything really now...
Dan: no
i always understood
3:01 PM me: if you can pass the message along to everyon in your select little group, I would appreciate it...
Dan: which message? the one about you working the next 2 days?
3:02 PM me: yah
Dan: will do
me: thanks
Dan: as for your email, i don't really have any thing specific to talk about necessarily
3:03 PM i just wanted to write my msg just to let you know that i'm not AGAINST talking to you
if that makes sense
i didn't want you thinking that i was not interested in talkign with you anymore
me: This might be a difference of opinions
3:04 PM but what use is talk when nothing comes out of it?
or rather
is it to let you procrastinate at work?

Sent after I logged off:

3:12 PM Dan: heh
sorry i was in game
3:13 PM well there may not be any anything that comes of it now (and that's debatable)
but it doesn't mean that there will NEVER be any good that comes of it

Krill,

I am confused. I got a NAP email, accepted, learned you had stolen my worker, logged in, and had a peace offer. Is that peace offer not valid? I mean, it's obviously effective for ten turns in game, but where do we stand now?

-sunrise

Hi Sunrise,

Sorry, I recieved an email from regoarrarr this morning, and reading between the lines it read to me that you (as in the über tech Alliance, UTA) were considering reprisals against the stealing of the worker. Which would be understandable. I assumed you had rejected the peace offer because I couldn't log in this morning, but now I can and see you have accepted I'll have to revise my comprehensin of the situation.

And TBH I'm happy now. You screwed me with the refusal to trade, I screwed you by stealing a worker, just as I expect an MPer such as yourself to have done if your roels were reversed, so after negoitiating the NAP until t120 I will stick to it, so long as you promise to. If you do, then I'll offer the exact same deal to everyone in the UTA as well.

I'm considering what to do still, but I'm not going to make a final decision until the sunrise replies, but I think he'll hold his word and not attack until t120, mainly because the other four will not want to see someone who could be building up an economy to help them, instead attempt to attack someone who is offering NAPs to all of them. If it works I'll have gotten bother a 65 turn free rein to set up a counter alliance, build up my own economy, and have cripled sunrise. Which should be pretty interesting to the other 4, as they must all know that sunrise has to fall at some point, and he is another player who knows how to conduct war.

[sooooo]

Read the last few days of the thread. Looks like the UTA will indeed dominate this game. I agree with your POV regarding FFAs - the way you handle your civ is almost irrelevant as long as you are vaguely compitant. The overriding factor is diplomacy and that is often messed up by random factors such as the direction your first scouting unit heads and if you can meet other civs or not. I think diplomacy is a rather lame way of deciding the result of a game of civ; I'd rather it be more reliant on what you build with your cities, how you move your units, things like that.

[Krill]

Read the last few days of the thread. Looks like the UTA will indeed dominate this game. I agree with your POV regarding FFAs - the way you handle your civ is almost irrelevant as long as you are vaguely compitant. The overriding factor is diplomacy and that is often messed up by random factors such as the direction your first scouting unit heads and if you can meet other civs or not. I think diplomacy is a rather lame way of deciding the result of a game of civ; I'd rather it be more reliant on what you build with your cities, how you move your units, things like that.

Diplomacy gets better the more teams there are IMO; considering that it's nigh on impossible to keep more than 5 teams working together at any one time, and large games can allow for multiple large alliances they can still be balanced out. Smaller games can obviously be unbalanced by diplomacy to such an extent that some people never do get a chance to impact the game. I'd consider this game alot more balanced diplomacy wise than either of the CFC and Poly demogames. for instance.

--

Update on the economy:

Worker 6 (Denzil) due eot t57 (this turn)
Writing due eot t57
Settler for DD due t60, 3*chops in CC, planted t62 (along with road connecting it to the capital)
Settler for FF (city 5) due eot t63 (without chop), planted t67

Possible next techs to research are Maths, HBR (t70), or Alphabet (t73). We are probably going to risk not getting archery or IW and try to survive with jsut quechuas; after all, barb animals are still about, and we are planning to get horses in the next 15 turns so chariots can take some of the pressure.

Still awaiting a reply from the UTA, but I'm not that worried.

[Krill]

Chat with regoarrarr. Not hugely productive, partly because my mind kept wandering, but I think I got one or two points across rather unsubtly, but something he has to be considering, whatever he does.

I had to strip out part of the chat that had to do with a comparrison between here and an incident in the MTDG involving SANCTA. There wasn't much said about it though, but the gist was that I didn't benefit from letting sunrise keep his workers (as everyone here has acknowledged and agrees with).

regoarrarr: so to clarify, when
T55: I offer sunrise an NAP until t120 @ 1959 GMT
did you mention that you had taken his worker?
Krill: Nope
regoarrarr: ok
Krill: I didn;t expect him to accept before he logged in
but the offer would have stood regardless of if he knew that he had lossed a worker or not
Sent at 2:03 PM on Thursday
Krill: I think both you and Dreylin will know there are better ways to "handle" me.
I just hope we can both reach a mutually agreeable course of action.
regoarrarr: like what?
Krill: so if you do remember what I said, either yesterday or the day before
about desciribing the situation as a no carrot and all stick method of negoitiating
regoarrarr: yes but now i'm not sure w hich you were referring to
whether that was how we were negotiating
or hwo you were (with the worker steal)
i meant to ask you about that
Krill: or
oh
You offered no carrot
you offered no tech trades
no NAPs
and agreed to a mutual defense pacted against me.
and locked me out of all tech trades
where is the carrot?
regoarrarr: but you had already stolen a worker by then!
Krill: nope
well
I "knew" you were going to lock me out
regoarrarr: well that's fair i guess - we didn't know that you had
Krill: yeah
regoarrarr: so what kind of carrot are you looking for
Krill: I offered the NAP to all of you, that is a sincere offer.
realistically I don;t expect alot
because I know I don;t have alot to offer
regoarrarr: well that's what you are offering us
what do YOU want
Krill: This might seem unreasonable, but here me out and consider this a negotiation between me, and all five of you, not just you as regoarrarr the player
regoarrarr: ok
Krill: I'd like Monarchy.
That might seem high
but it's just monarchy
not the support techs
ie not meditation
not prieshood
regoarrarr: so you would have all the pre-reqa
and just want monarchy
Krill: yup
regoarrarr: in exchange for?
Krill: What would YOU like?
regoarrarr: i don't know

from a tech perspective, one of the techs that you could research that we don't have would be something like aesthetics or metal casting
but it seems like in order for us to make it worth it you'd have to give it to all of us
(otherwise it's a net loss for say me if you only trade it to whoever techs monarchy)
and that seems kind of cheeky to ask for
Krill: Which is something which I've already offered as well
or do you mean
I give MC to all five
and 1 person gives me monarchy?
regoarrarr: well that's the scenario i was mentioning
but like i said
that doesn't seem "right"
and i wouldn't expect you to agree
Krill: yup
from a game theory PoV I'm helping 4 other teams, getting them closer to winning, and they aren't helping me
regoarrarr: agreed
Krill: OTOH you all have limited resources
for happy, health
regoarrarr: what do you mean?
Krill: well, it's not like you are going to have spices, sugar, silks etc to trade to one another
so you are going to have to either make do with less or trade outside
regoarrarr: i see
Krill: to bring it back round, and compare it with tech, You can't keep everything inside a nice little 5 way group
you are going to have to pay over the odds, simply because you have more to ffer
*offer
regoarrarr: what do you mean by pay over the odds
Krill: Any trade to you 5 that helps any one of you, helps all 5
so the benefit one of you gets, is multiplied 5 times
be it gold that is then used to deficit research, or a resource that lets you grow and tech harder.
so realistically you aren't going to be getting 1:1 trades
but all that is game theory
I'm sure we'll see over the coming months if it turns into practice, in this group
regoarrarr: yeah
Sent at 2:25 PM on Thursday
Krill: Something that I find amusing though
why only a defense pact against me?
doesn't really help you much
regoarrarr: nobody wanted to attack you
Krill: not yet
regoarrarr: no
not at all
(this was all pre-worker steal)
Krill: so...
after you guys get to eles and we're all struggling towards alphabet, you still weren't going to be interested in an attack?
I find that hard to believe
you probabnly wouldn;t be interested
regoarrarr: who knows how the future might have played out
Krill: um, me (Editors comment: if regoarrarr can't see that sunrise can only either expand through me, or through an ally, I'm not going to help him)
regoarrarr: i tell you tehre was no talk about that
even if we were planning an attack, there was nothing saying it had to be on you
(down the road)
there was no talk about future military cooperation
like i said earlier, perhaps you are givingi us more credit than we deserve
Krill: Perhaps
but it would be foolhardy of me to see the course this game will take, and ignore it
regoarrarr: sure
but with 11 folks, i would think it would be more difficult than you might imagine to know what course the game will take
but maybe i'm wrong
you've played "a bit" more MP civ than i have....
Krill: You might want to ask sunrise where he would want to expand
and you'll realise just how you forced my hand (Comment: or maybe I will...)
Damnit
I never wanted to steal that worker. (Which is true! I'd rather have been part of the alliance)
Sent at 2:33 PM on Thursday
Krill: Obviously you don't know if that is true or not. I suppose you are just thinking I said that to try appear like some hippy peacenik
regoarrarr: heh
did you delete it?
or is it on its way back to portugal?
Krill: I'm Exp
don;t really need workers
it's another scout now
regoarrarr: if you didn't want to steal it, you could always give it back
Krill: why?
What do I get then?
regoarrarr: well what do you get having it?
Krill: The obvious
it's not what I gain
It's what sunrise lost
regoarrarr: right
you hurt sunrise
i just think it is slightly disingenuous to say that you never wanted to steal the worker when you have a possible mode of restitution
and choose not to use it
(not that i expect you to)
Krill: Wh
Sent at 2:37 PM on Thursday
Krill: And it's disingenious of you to expect me, whom you have offered nothing, to do something that makes my position in this game worse
I tried to be nice
I offered stuff that helped all of you
regoarrarr: what have i expected you to do that you are referring to?
Krill: and got rebuffed
True, you didn;t say you expected it of me, but that's a complete contradiction to what you said immediately before
regoarrarr: well you can't say that "you never wanted to steal the worker"
Krill: I don;t actually have a mode of restituation
regoarrarr: unless maybe we're interpreting that differently
Krill: I needed to steal the worker
didn;t want to
regoarrarr: i'm coming at it from teh perspective that nobody "made" you do it
yeah
i guess that's fair
(not that i necessarily agree but i concede your point)
(at least from your perspective) (Comment: There is a difference? That just smacks of petulance to me).
Krill: tbh this actually helps you long term as well
regoarrarr: a sunrise / krill war?
(or cold war)
Krill: just a weakened sunrise in general
regoarrarr: well, yes, that thought has crossed my mind
it's 2 things
1) a friend of mine that is weakened does not help me
in that i would want all of my friends to be strong
but 2) a weakened neighbor does help me
Krill: Yup
especially a weakened neighbour that you could split with other allies (comment: See? Really not subtle, am I? )
Sent at 2:43 PM on Thursday
Krill: uh
have you found the northern edge of the map yet?
Sent at 2:45 PM on Thursday
Krill: (continue from previous sentence): esecially when your (principle?) outside competitor only really wants the top 15 tiles of the map.
regoarrarr: i'm confused
that goes with "especially a weakened neighbour that you could split with other allies"?
Sent at 2:46 PM on Thursday
Krill: shrug what would you rather have? A weakened sunrise tagging along that could be a closer ally to others in the 5, or you in control of a solid portion of that land?
regoarrarr: i understand
Krill: that's the next step in the thought process, after the 2 points you listed, at least to me
regoarrarr: and agree that will have to be something to think about
so answering your other question i have not found the northern edge, have you?
Krill: yeah
4 tiles north of our cap
sunrises cap is 23 tiles from the northern border
Sent at 2:50 PM on Thursday
Krill: do you know how far the southern border is from sunrises cap?
Sent at 2:53 PM on Thursday
regoarrarr: i'm not sure
i gotta go - got some work stuff coming up
ttyl
Krill: cya
Sent at 2:55 PM on Thursday

[Krill]

The interesting parts of the chat IMO was regoarrarrs viewpoint that I had a way to give sunrise his worker back, even after he original saw the comparrison to what SANCTA did (those of you that can access the forum, go to turn...76 ish and look at the turn reports). Sufficed to say backing someone into a corner is something that shouldn't happen until you are ready to kill them or can stop and major reprisals (ie protect your workers...)

The important bit was making sunrise appear like a weak link and a possible target for expansion, and that I wasn't bothered at all by it (which I'm not, really). That is one way that the UTA could get fractured, and it would also see at least 2 of the UTA fighting, more likely 3 (regoarrarr, and possible the Lins if they are direct west of sunrise? Maybe ZPV as well?) And saying outright that I wouldn't interfere is one small step to making it viable for regoarrarr.

I'm obviously not going to be able persuade regoarrarr to declare on sunrise before he gets to war eles, but if I can get him to go in that direction, and put together a half decent tech alliance the medi era should be interesting, especially if I get the NAP and can expand like a blimp in a vacuum cleaner.

Obviously I'm not the most subtle diplomat ever, but if I started acting like one I figure everyone would be on their guard with me.

[LiPing]

Thanks for the new chat colours, it's a lot easier to read

[Krill]

I'll try to vary the colours; unfortunately I have difficulty reading blue and red, so I might end up going with white and green.