WW25 - Game Thread

[BRickAstley]

BRick, did I understand correctly that you have some sort of vigilante power? I think you should claim your role and then Lewwyn can let us know if it fits with his role.

Okay. I would prefer not to give the exact specifics to what it entails, since that is extra knowledge that scum can use, but I would be willing to do so if he thinks it's necessary. I'd prefer to wait and see if Lewwyn feels confident with what I've revealed to now, and if he feels like it would be prudent for me to reveal more then I will.

[Jowy]

Hmm where did you get the information that ghoul deaths raise sanity? if Serdoa posted something to that effect I missed it.

As far as sanity and gameplay balance goes, I don't know about deaths, but I do know from my role PM that night abilities can modify the sanity counter as a side effect. That's why I assumed that decreasing sanity would result in bad things happening for the village, and why Brick's claimed role is weird.

TBH, meta is the main thing that makes me unsure on Brick right now.

ah, if it is affected by abilities, i might be wrong.
my reasoning was that we start 20 sanity, then two villager and one ghoul die, sanity only drop to 18.
then next two villager die, sanity drops to 13. much bigger drop for 2 villager than 2 villager + ghoul.

maybe its just coincidence then.

[BRickAstley]

Hmm where did you get the information that ghoul deaths raise sanity? if Serdoa posted something to that effect I missed it.

As far as sanity and gameplay balance goes, I don't know about deaths, but I do know from my role PM that night abilities can modify the sanity counter as a side effect. That's why I assumed that decreasing sanity would result in bad things happening for the village, and why Brick's claimed role is weird.

TBH, meta is the main thing that makes me unsure on Brick right now.

ah, if it is affected by abilities, i might be wrong.
my reasoning was that we start 20 sanity, then two villager and one ghoul die, sanity only drop to 18.
then next two villager die, sanity drops to 13. much bigger drop for 2 villager than 2 villager + ghoul.

maybe its just coincidence then.

Yeah, I agree with Jowy, I felt like since the ghoul was a "bad" person dying, that's what accounted for the relatively low drop. I had not even thought about the idea of some powers either primarily or secondarily affecting the sanity count.

As for my ability, *shrug*, it becomes more effective when sanity drops, I agree that it is weird, especially because I wasn't given any flavor reason at all for it, that's just how it was told to me. My best guess is that it would go along with something similar to what Jowy said, that as sanity lowers, certain things might pop up that give the village an evening out advantage.

[pindicator]

Novice, why do you think this is multifactional if we only had one kill last night?

Serdoa, one of the Werewolves, died to an intervention of a god.

Azza died. He was a Ghoul.

Maybe you aren't checking the QT any more, but i asked a couple hours ago when you first noticed this. It seems a pretty important bit of evidence to be held on to.

[zakalwe]

Agree with this analysis.

Make sure you read the retort that I cross-posted. The analysis is flawed.

Lewwyn, I have done my homework about Novice - sort of. I read Brick's long "let's look at Novice" post carefully, which is probably good enough. I still don't see any big scum tells, and I don't think his play style is necessarily scummy. Sure, I'm having some doubts about him, but at the moment I think that's mostly just due to the peer pressure.

I also think Uberfish has been more in character lately and making some good posts (although he was much too quick to agree with that analysis above). So I have my vote on Gazglum because I think (ironically) that he's sitting back today. But I'm really having a hard time seeing anyone who deserves to be lynched ahead of Brick. By the way - you are being vague about how your roles complement each other, but isn't it possible that they complement each other with opposite alignments?

Uberfish, you wanted more information. What do you think about forcing a real claim / explanation for trolling out of Jowy?

[Gazglum]

Well, I am still leaning towards Brick's innocence. It wouldn't be the first time he's bumbled into a townie mess, my first werewolf game ended with Brick's ill-timed seer claim sealing my doom as I challenged Ichabod. And as I've said, I don't quite see the logic behind the timing, if the whole thing was a scum plot.

Mattimeo I've looked through again and there's not much there. His MJW vote was made and then abandoned for logical reasons. Given that I don't like policy lynches, the scummiest thing that stands out for me now is that he's on the Lynch all Liars bandwagon, but that seems consistent with the formula-like way he approaches these games.

Jowy I admit has been posting a lot more coherently the last day. On the other hand, I don't think I believe his vanilla claim. And Jowy, you never explained the "I'm so dead tonight," post. Why would you think you were going to be a target?

As I said, I don't really like the idea of policy lynching Brick at a time when we can't afford many more mistakes, although I do agree his play has been anti-town. Even if you think he's the best lynch in the end, half-way through today is certainly not a good time to get tunnel-vision on Brick, which I feel Novice has been showing.

Also, I didn't like this post by Novice at the time, I like it less now:

I don't find it all that compelling, really. I'm not sure Gazglum is cool enough to post with the poise that he does as scum. He's had a few good analyses too. And I'm not sure he's been doing any more hedging than the rest of us, it's not like we have any red hot leads.

This feels kind of absurd to argue, but I think its scummy that Novice doesn't think I could be scummy. As I said before, Novice has never said I couldn't be a laid-back wolf before, despite voicing suspicions of me in previous games. Saying anybody 'couldn't be scum because they're being themselves' is a weak argument if you've never seen them be scum. And I know I'm susceptible to emotional plays, and this felt like Novice buddying up to me.

Its more suspicious to me now that Novice has given his scum list:

Well it depends of course on how BRick flips. Just going by aggregated impressions, I guess my lynch preference goes something like this:
BRickAstley
Qgqqqqq
Jowy
(gap)
Gazglum
Jkaen
pindicator
uberfish
zakalwe
(gap)
Mattimeo
Lewwyn

If you didn't think I could be a wolf yesterday, what have I done since to yank me up above Jkaen, Uberfish or Zakalwe? It's not that I think my place on this list is totally unfair, but I think there's a disconnect between what you've said about me and others, and how this list is laid out. It would be easier to understand if you gave the thinking behind your reads more, but you've been pretty reticent on that Novice.

[Mattimeo]

Hey Mattimeo, you're known to everyone as a tracker or watcher or whatever, there shouldn't be any negative reason to revealing what you saw last night, but I don't think I've seen anything from you about results. Care to maybe give some insight why?

And Lewwyn, are you at liberty to discuss what if anything you did last night? Did you go after Ichabod?

Well, if you're willing to accept the base assumption that "villages do not lie", you know where I went.

...oh, wait

[Mattimeo]

You know, I am sorry if I offended a sensibility that you (and zak too) had that all village players must be honorable and never lie about anything ever, but this is a game of investigating people and trying to seek out those people that have it out for the rest of us. At this point, you're content to play in a way to take me out just for the sake of being misleading, regardless if I'm on the bad team or not because that's, from my guess, in your mind "not the right way to play", even at the cost of making you lose the game. If I'm hitting you personally I apologize, but in the in-game theater this is is nothing less than a horrible position to take up.

Somewhat poor position for this game.
Brilliant position for the meta-game.

This is a game of investigating people, and trying to find out who's been misleading us - there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a faithful villager to lie, other than engaging in epic trolling. While epic trolling is something I generally admire, I really don't think town trolling town in werewolf is something that should be encouraged, or even tolerated all that much.

One of his first votes, after a vote on slow for 'dont vote people at start cause you always do'. The actual vote was earlier, but he gives a reason here that could be understandable for an early vote, but isn't very strong. It's not out of the realms of possibility that MJW had knowledge that pertained to sanity that could have been wolf-influenced.

Well, in hindsight we know that he didn't have wolf-influenced knowledge of the sanity mechanic, but we *do* know that the person who initially introduced sanity to the discussion in a major way, and whose claims MJW was basing his entire argument on, was lying about those claims.
And then, this person ends the day with the final vote against MJW?

BRick, did I understand correctly that you have some sort of vigilante power? I think you should claim your role and then Lewwyn can let us know if it fits with his role.

Okay. I would prefer not to give the exact specifics to what it entails, since that is extra knowledge that scum can use, but I would be willing to do so if he thinks it's necessary. I'd prefer to wait and see if Lewwyn feels confident with what I've revealed to now, and if he feels like it would be prudent for me to reveal more then I will.

read "I'm content with the fact that novice is getting lynched for calling me out for lying, there's no need for me to reveal I'm also lying about having a power role"

[Mattimeo]

So either both groups out there targeted Ichabod or we have some kind of protective role that lined up with a scum kill.
I doubt both groups targeted Ichabod so somebody did well last night

...and on the first night, if we're assuming that Lewwyn is a pseudo-vig

At which point, we have doctors getting lucky / scum same targetting two nights running. Occam would tend to suggest that we only have one faction capable of a night kill, even if we do have multiple scum factions.

Maybe you aren't checking the QT any more, but i asked a couple hours ago when you first noticed this. It seems a pretty important bit of evidence to be held on to.

I personally noticed it at about the time Azza showed up dead in a different colour to Serdoa's self-death... I suppose the reaction to me pointing out a killer when I was assuming two scum factions is more understandable if everyone else was ignoring it. Didn't occur to me that it was something that could be missed...

[BRickAstley]

Hey Mattimeo, you're known to everyone as a tracker or watcher or whatever, there shouldn't be any negative reason to revealing what you saw last night, but I don't think I've seen anything from you about results. Care to maybe give some insight why?

And Lewwyn, are you at liberty to discuss what if anything you did last night? Did you go after Ichabod?

Well, if you're willing to accept the base assumption that "villages do not lie", you know where I went.

...oh, wait

Um.... Well I'm assuming in that case that you went and looked at Lewwyn again. Do you have results? Anything to charge him with? Even under your reasoning that I'm a wolf asking not sharing that with the village is baffling.

You know, I am sorry if I offended a sensibility that you (and zak too) had that all village players must be honorable and never lie about anything ever, but this is a game of investigating people and trying to seek out those people that have it out for the rest of us. At this point, you're content to play in a way to take me out just for the sake of being misleading, regardless if I'm on the bad team or not because that's, from my guess, in your mind "not the right way to play", even at the cost of making you lose the game. If I'm hitting you personally I apologize, but in the in-game theater this is is nothing less than a horrible position to take up.

Somewhat poor position for this game.
Brilliant position for the meta-game.

This is a game of investigating people, and trying to find out who's been misleading us - there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a faithful villager to lie, other than engaging in epic trolling. While epic trolling is something I generally admire, I really don't think town trolling town in werewolf is something that should be encouraged, or even tolerated all that much.

Well, even though I did it, I can't say that trolling for a game is a good cause. When I decided to do what I did, I wanted to do so because I thought it would be a fun and interesting exercise, not out of any desire to just give people heartburn. I feel like you're basically saying you want to lynch me for the overall metagame.

One of his first votes, after a vote on slow for 'dont vote people at start cause you always do'. The actual vote was earlier, but he gives a reason here that could be understandable for an early vote, but isn't very strong. It's not out of the realms of possibility that MJW had knowledge that pertained to sanity that could have been wolf-influenced.

Well, in hindsight we know that he didn't have wolf-influenced knowledge of the sanity mechanic, but we *do* know that the person who initially introduced sanity to the discussion in a major way, and whose claims MJW was basing his entire argument on, was lying about those claims.
And then, this person ends the day with the final vote against MJW?

I'm honestly not sure what this is getting at. I'm getting that novice's vote on uber cause of uber's vote on MJW cause of MJW's arguments concerning me are justified because my post restriction wasn't based on sanity?

BRick, did I understand correctly that you have some sort of vigilante power? I think you should claim your role and then Lewwyn can let us know if it fits with his role.

Okay. I would prefer not to give the exact specifics to what it entails, since that is extra knowledge that scum can use, but I would be willing to do so if he thinks it's necessary. I'd prefer to wait and see if Lewwyn feels confident with what I've revealed to now, and if he feels like it would be prudent for me to reveal more then I will.

read "I'm content with the fact that novice is getting lynched for calling me out for lying, there's no need for me to reveal I'm also lying about having a power role"

How is that even close? I just said that if Lewwyn, the person he's indirectly asking to verify me, thinks i need to fess up more for the villages sake, then I will. Besides, if I told you the details down the the exact wording, would you even believe me? I see no need to just throw more information to the wolves unless it's necessary.