Diplomacy Correspondence Tracking thread

[scooter]

Okay, so I saw Yuufo of UniversCiv online, and I felt the need to jump to chat with him real quick. Obviously we know what's going on with Apolyton and CivPlayers, but this seemed like an opportunity to figure out if more are involved.

scooter
Hey Yuufo. You around for a few minutes?
This is scooter from Realms Beyond
Yuufo
Hey!
Sry I was washing dishes
scooter
Hey! glad I could catch you. I just got your message and noticed you were still online
no problem!
Our team will need to talk about your message, but I just thought I would check in and let you know message received, and maybe clarify with you a little bit
We've heard rumors like this too, but we weren't sure how true they were. Have your neighbors been giving you any pressure about it?
because we'd be happy to help you in any way, but I'm not quite sure if you face any threats right now
meaning: we'd be happy to offer some sort of help, but I'm trying to figure out what situation would help you
Yuufo
I think they are growing more confident. At the beginning their sounded like proposals, now it's rather more like requests
scooter
gotcha. I know Apolyton and CivPlayers have been talking about something like this. Is that who you mean? Or more like CFC or CivFr?
Yuufo
Since we are not really in the loop, they stay vague
and they made me swear not to repeat certain things, so...
we have no defined position yet
scooter
Yeah I understand that. I know you feel like you shouldn't give us names, but here's why I'm asking
Yuufo
as I said, we see ourselves as a big neutral Switzerland
scooter
for instance, if it's CFC that is pressuring you, that changes how we might work with you since they are your direct neighbors
I don't want CFC to attack you guys any more than you probably do
Yuufo
CFC have grown more powerful since they conquered the Zulus
scooter
definitely. they seem to be at war with CivFr, but I'm not sure how real that war is right now
Yuufo
sadly they don't want to give us a bit of the land
I have no more information
scooter
yeah not too surprising on them - they are squabbling over the land with CivFr right now
Hm okay. I can tell you this. We know Apoltyon and CivPlayers are interested in giving us trouble. Apolyton is rushing for Rifles and have the ability to draft them. So we know those 2 are involved. Are there more than that?
Yuufo
I suppose too.
But I can't prove it
Just that they sound really confident
scooter
I am under the impression CFC is trying to get peace with both CivFr and then NAP extension with us. If they can do that, they might look towards you, so I'm concerned about that as I don't want that to happen to you
Okay. I think it may be because they are closer to Rifling than us, but our war doesn't have much left so I think we will be okay
I'll definitely get back to you by email very soon
Yuufo
okay
thanks
scooter
I tend to believe that people who are not neighbors can work together the best, so I think we could be friends very easily. But I do understand your desire to be neutral if it's at all possible.
Yuufo
Can we expect to talk again on Sunday?
scooter
I think that should work. I'll discuss this with my teammates today
Maybe around this time tomorrow? I might be a little later, but not much later
Yuufo
I'll try
I keep gmail open
scooter
Ok. If not, that's fine, I can send an email
okay
Yuufo
Bye
scooter
bye, thanks again for the message and chat.

[scooter]

Quick explanation sent to WPC:

Hey Beta: Just a note that I didn't forget about you today, but if you noticed over at CFC we have put in a reload request. Due to the nature of the problem (a bunch of our units on the front got sent in the wrong direction ), we needed to know if the reload would be granted before being able to reply to you. I'm hoping that will get resolved tomorrow, so you should be hearing from me then.

Thanks,
scooter - Team RB

[scooter]

Brief chat with UCiv. I didn't get very long before he had to bolt, but I floated the Communism idea:

scooter
Hey Yuufo, do you have a few minutes by any chance?
Yuufo
Hi!
scooter
hey! glad I caught you
So I talked with my team, and we definitely would like to work with you however we can
we were trying to think of ideas.
Yuufo
good
scooter
someone suggested an interesting one.
We would like to get to communism tech. we have good science, but also extremely high expenses which is slowing us down
an idea: if you guys fund us with gold on our way to communism so we can get there quickly, we'll beat everyone there, getting a great spy. We could then gift you the great spy. you could use that to infiltrate us and steal a bunch of techs from us and catch up that way since tech stealing is cheaper then researching most of the time
I know it's a little odd, but if we arranged, it, we could make it so it's cheaper than researching the techs for you
Yuufo
i thought that would be forbidden by the rules?
(spionage economy)
scooter
I don't know of a rule that would prevent that?
oh no, spies are allowed. apolyton just used a great spy to steal 3 techs from us at once
a few turns ago
Yuufo
well in all pitboss games I am playing it is forbidden
cooperative spionage
scooter
yeah, that's pretty common, but the other teams voted to allow it here for some reason
so anyway, there's an idea to think about. we have not set our tech path just yet so we aren't 100% sure if it will work best for you and us yet, but it's something to consider
Yuufo
i don't think it would work, since we are far away from each other. the spies would take ages to get to your cities, or get caught, and the costs depend on distance
scooter
On costs: I can have some people on our team do the math and they can figure out the exact costs so we can make sure it works.
on distance: we can get the great spy itself to you very quickly for the gift since it has 2 moves and we have engineering. the other spies you could build in advance.
Yuufo
do you tech Communism just for the spy?
scooter
we would like state property and the workshop bonus
Yuufo
ah ok
scooter
but denying the spy to an enemy is a good benefit too
or using it ourself if we teched it without help. tech stealing is so cheap if there is no counter-espionage
Yuufo
yes I know
well I'll submit the idea to my team
I must go now
bye!
scooter
Okay no problem. Yeah jsut let me know if you have any questions or concerns and we can talk more
bye!

[scooter]

So I had a chat with Apolyton about the NAP situation. I didn't make much progress on that front, but then we got some really great news at the end. Also, yes I asked a few rhetorical questions or said things just to get him talking, so if a couple of my comments seem odd, that's what I was angling for. Here's the whole thing:

scooter
Hey. so I see you guys are all geared up to attack us with CivPLayers soon :D
that should be fun. what is your goal in doing that if you don't mind me asking?
MZ
you know something I don't?
scooter
well you guys are both refusing to extend NAPs, they are funding you towards rifling, you revolted so that you can draft...
I can do math
MZ
well, seiously..
fate and circumstances will make us enemies one day.. we might not have the strength to attack you.. or defeat you.. but we believe we will be able to defend ourselves, so that's why we will not make nap.. to let the possiblity open when we can see a chance
right now we are the last in powers, aztec not much higher than us, cfc is at war with maya, wpc seems to be your friend, hre doesn1t answer mails.. but we also know that you too will get rifls soon..
scooter
so you'd rather a world where we both could just be opportunistic with each other?
MZ
you can say so
scooter
T170 is 10 turns away, and our war will be done well before that... So we'll definitely have everything on your border by then
so we'll be safe
I'd just prefer a world where we don't have to be in an arms race for no reason
and I'd be happy to give both you and civplayers the same NAP
MZ
we are disspaointed in inca in their lack of efforts to at least slow you down.. it seems they used everything against wpc.. now we see you a big threat which can not left in peace.. so if i1s only mking you to enter in race of arms and at least slow you down that way we will do it
scooter
we already *have* a large army :P
MZ
by not signing nap
i now
scooter
hah no, it's large because we built it up to run over Inca, not because of your team
we haven't lost much at all
MZ
you know we had to assume you and inca hada nap because we could not think they would be so blind not to notice your army building up
scooter
we did have a NAP, but it ended on T150. they didn't even ask to extend it until T148
MZ
that's why we made a nap offer to you, to figure out maybe you plan something against us with maya
sry, with inca
that's why i say they were blind..
to not use a more offensive word :P
scooter
ah okay. yeah, they just forgot about it I think
haha yeah, I understand
Anyway. we see your mutual rush to rifles. I feel if you were only intersted in defending yourself you would be happy with jannisaries and would tech economic things, but you are ignoring your UU and rushing to Rifles. so I can only conclude you plan to attack
and if there's anything that is worthwhile to you to extend a NAP, let me know
I feel like it would be much easier if you just "drafted" off of us with arranged tech stealing, but if you're going to not be friendly we'll just run counter-espionage constantly
MZ
about the nap. we can1t make it for the reasons i mentioned. so yes we might have alittle fun in the future.. when exactly i don't know.. maybe when you stomp over us with your cavalries
about espionage: i prefer to do it unannounced
scooter
why would we want to stomp over you with our cavalries when we've repeatedly offered you peace??
and it's going to be much, much more expensive if we block it with counter-espionage. way more efficient when it's announced :P
MZ
i know we wouldn't be your ideal next target
we are quite far ad soon have the ability to draft rifles
but you are too big already to give you security from our side
scooter
what does that gain you?
honestly asking, I can't piece that one together
MZ
i don't believe i need to spell it out .
scooter
I think so, yes. If you are trying to win, how does this help you do that?
I don't think your object is to beat us, you still have to beat CFC and CivFr too.
MZ
cfc aand civfr aare beating each other
scooter
nah, they haven't exchanged hardly any units for a few turns now, we've been tracking that.
very mild skirmishes, but it's not a serious war at the moment
MZ
so you would suggest a nap, and would promise not to attack civplayers too.. but what about you ad maya kill cfc then he two of you easily kill us both as we are much smaller
scooter
we can give you a very long NAP
MZ
til the end of game? so we might get second place :P
scooter
Like, I would have to talk it over with my team, but we would likely be willing to give you and CivPlayers a NAP until the end if you wanted

[those last 2 messages were sent at basically the same time in case that's not clear]

haha
MZ
nah.. i would1t miss some midgame fun..
scooter
you're saying you're afraid that relegates you to 2nd place. I'm not so sure, but does attacking us in 10T end up better than 2nd place somehow?
MZ
attacking you probably won1t happen unless circumstances would improve dramatically.. but what1s the point targeting second place till we have even a slight chance to win? and letting you grow even bigger would just lessen our chances to 0
scooter
I definitely can understand that at least. I'm all in favor of playing for the win whenever possible, so I respect that
MZ
one thing before i forget:
back to espionage I wanted to make this proposal to all teams about banning certain spy actions, talking about he civic and religion changing once
this would be an ingame agreement, those who sign it accept hat they will not use these kind of actions against hose who signed it too
scooter
that's a good idea. we would be willing to sign that agreement
that even if we were at war with you, we would not use those missions
MZ
so no official rule, just like naps but not end during wars
scooter
agreed
is anyone else interested that you know of in agreeing to that?
MZ
i will propose this to other team as well in some kind of foms.. i expect cfc not want to enter but we will see
i don't like cheap tactics.. though would hd enjoyed putting you into taoism6pacifism/bureau/caste system
ok i did not have enough spies but still
scooter
haha, yeah that's just no fun to play through
MZ
yeah, i agree
scooter
Anyway, I need to go, but I'll just reiterate once more that if you can think of any way we can prolong a NAP and it be beneficial to you, let me know. otherwise, I guess our border with you will have to be heavily militarized for safety's sake . thanks for the chat and for hearing me out!
MZ
ok, cya

Summary:
1) They very likely just will not sign the NAP. Too bad. I get where they're coming from, even though I pressed him on it here just to see him explain himself.
2) OMG YES on the civic/religion thing. That would help quite a bit if we got both Apolyton and CivPlayers to agree to that. CFC is less likely to agree, but even just getting those two on board would help a lot.

[Lord Parkin]

From WePlayCiv:

Hi guys. Don't end your turn, please, without consulting me. I did not think I hit EOT yesterday. :dunno:

Just in case we do something jointly regarding Warendorf.

Thx!

btw - here's the pics of the four stacks of RB units lined up outside of Huron River.

There are two Longbows in Warendorf.

Cheers! Beta

Our reply:

Beta,

I don't plan on ending turn until tomorrow, so no worries about that. Thanks for the screenshots. We plan on playing the war portion of the turn in 6-7 hours or so, and if we can coordinate something with Warendorf then we'll let you know. The issue is it's a little tricky to precisely lower the last longbow into a range where 1) your chariot is able to kill it and 2) we won't kill it ourselves. So we're discussing that internally, but I'll definitely keep you in the loop.

Thanks,
scooter - Team RB

[Lord Parkin]

From WPC:

Understood that would probably be an issue. Better you leave a slightly or badly wounded longbow there. We have a stack, inlcluding 3 catapults, that can tackle the city.

[scooter]

Sent to WPC:

Beta,

We attempted to redline the last Warendorf longbow for your chariot, but we got a favorable dice roll at the wrong time and killed the longbow from full health. Sorry about that, but we knew there was a chance that could happen because it's hard to precisely redline a unit enough for a chariot to kill :/. We had a weird string of luck, winning things we shouldn't and losing things we shouldn't.

Anyway, we were able to kill their stack on the pigs, and we'll do all we can next turn to kill more units. We placed a few units on flatland, and I'm hoping they'll take that bait to attack back at us rather than you, but I'm not sure if they'll do that or not. We're sending 90% of our army towards Huron as fast as we can, so I hope we make it in time. We also detached a few Knights onto tiles that have an outside chance of taking both tundra cities next turn, so if we get lucky and that happens, all of their units would go *poof* if you can hold the city next turn. Fingers crossed.

Next turn let me know how Huron looks, and we'll pick off whatever of their units we can get in range of.

Thanks,
scooter - Team RB

[scooter]

Got this from CivPlayers via chat (when no one was signed into the account) rather than email.

Hi, Scooter
sorry for delay

Unfortunately we dont find your proposal interesting.
We are just thinking that giving you NAP is a way better for you than to have it ourselves.

It is not a matter of security, but plain economics. If you have to keep some forces at your borders this will help us to keep balance. While if everyone guarantee you peace we probably can just call this game and stop playing.

[Ruff_Hi]

Early morning email from WPC ...

Hi Scooter. Looks like you are going to have to replay your turn.

And I would like to ask that when you take Wilhelmshaven and Warendorf, that you not capture them, but raze them instead. We could then rebuild with our own cities.

And please leave the last two cities for us to capture.

The original plan was to split the number of cities, but the German defence strategy clearly advantaged RB and allowed you to capture the bulk of the German territory.

If you captured the remaining 4 cities, and with no way to transfer them to us, it would mean we get absolutely nothing out of this war.

Let me know what you think. Thanks!

Beta of WPC

I don't think we can do that and claim that we replayed the turn.

[scooter]

Chat with CFC:

scooter
What's your team think about the NAP idea btw?

YossarianLives
tbh, we're still somewhat divided
The proposal you made was a good one though. A lot of our team is ready to sign
But we do everything very diplomatically, and decisions take a little while to make
We're taking our time on this one, since we have it
Not diplomatically, democratically

scooter
Yeah no problem, I understand. Glad to hear people at least feel generally favorably about it

YossarianLives
Yeah, we're closer than I thought we would ever get before you had proposed anything.

scooter
I know our teams have both clashed with each other once or twice, but the reality is we communicate fairly well and both of our teams are pretty practical, so that helps a lot

YossarianLives
Were you able to replay your turn? Did the second reload have any impact on your battles?

scooter
"we communicate fairly well" - I mean both of our teams

YossarianLives
Yeah, I really like the dialogue we've had since we've been chatting

scooter
we haven't replayed it yet. Probably tonight or tomorrow, not sure. little hesitant to hurry too much and play since that ended poorly last time! haha
not too worried about the rerolling of battles. our luck was moderately above-average the first time so we may lose an extra unit or two, but it was our mistake to begin with so I cant complain

YossarianLives
Yeah, I don't think luck has much to do with the outcome of your battles at this point
What are you leaving for WPC? I thought they were going to get some of the German lands

scooter
yeah it wasn't going to hurt us on a significant level, it's mop-up time right now

YossarianLives
Right now we're predicting you might just continue right through WPC after you finish the Germans off.

scooter
that's sort of in progress on sorting that out. they kind of did things very different from our recommendations early on, and that really hurt them.
it's just awkward when one is attacking with knights, maces, and elephants and the other is attacking with dog soldiers

YossarianLives
lol!!!

scooter
hah, nah probably not

YossarianLives
Well that's good (from our perspective)
We were thinking that the way you worded the NAP, if you started a war with them right before T175, then we couldn't do anything while you just kept gobbling up more land

scooter
would it make you guys more willing to agree on the NAP if we promised not to attack them?
oh
no, sorry on the confusion there
the idea was as soon as the agreement was signed, that clause would be in effect
so theoretically if you guys sign it tomorrow and we declare on WPC next week, you would get your "out" clause
and vice versa of course

YossarianLives
Another question about the NAP
Do you have the same concerns about us that we have about you? That with a standard NAP we could DOW another weak team and take more land without you being able to stop us? Or was there another reason you made the clause reciprical?

scooter
Kind of, yeah. If we sign a NAP with you suddenly get peace with CivFr, you have a sizable army and a northern neighbor with basically no army
*with you, and you suddenly

YossarianLives
Well we need to catch up to you somehow! We had to share the Zulu lands with CivFr, but it looks like you're now getting all the German lands to yourselves

scooter
I can understand that, yeah. Would you be more interested in the deal if we dropped that portion of the clause for your team?

YossarianLives
Is that something you would be willing to do?

scooter
I'd have to check with the team and talk about it. I hadn't considered that it might be a sticking point. In my opinion I'd be willing to, but there are a lot of other opinions of course

YossarianLives
Yeah, I definitely know how that goes!

scooter
I'll check with them and get back to you for sure

YossarianLives
That would be great. One less concern for some of our members.

scooter
for sure, and yeah, do pass on to your team that the "out clause" would be active immediately, not wait until T175
you know, I'll send you an official email after we discuss all that with official wording so it's clear
let's me clean up the language a bit so nothing is overly ambiguous
Also I can't remember if we discussed this, but if we did this, we'd like to close "NAP loopholes"

YossarianLives
Like the pillaging thing?

scooter
and also extend our EP arrangements where we both target EPs elsewhere
yeah pillaging, helping enemies with strategic resources/gold, etc
we really only closed about half of them last time, and it seems prudent to just clean it all up so we're both clear

YossarianLives
You'll re-write it with the appropriate language for all that, then?

scooter
yeah I can do that
as soon as we figure out what we want to do with your half of the out clause, I'll send that to you
that work?

YossarianLives
Perfect, we'll be looking out for that, then

scooter
great!