RB Pitboss #1 Spoilers - Joai of the Incans - Krill/Memphus

[Krill]

Memphus is gonna kill me...although I'm considering the proposal. For once I'd like to see a war averted by diplomacy, and if I have to threaten someone with a great big stack then that's what I'll sodding do...

Actually this would be a treaty that favours the Lins. Taco is dead no matter what and we can easily hold the rest, probably going on the offensive...but we'll see.

3:04 AM Krill: I know we are not technically at war, but would you care to make an offer for a long term peace treaty?
3:05 AM Dreylin: You sound like Templars...
Krill: or does the thought "take them from our cold dead hands" suffice?
Dreylin: what would you want?
Krill: (is this Dreylin or Kalin I'm speaking to?)
3:06 AM Dreylin: Sorry, should have said; Dreylin
Krill: I suppose I'll go one better than Kaz and demand Taco, Tamales (the city south of Taco?) and Hun. I fully expect to get shot down, but yah know, it's a starting point
3:07 AM Dreylin: Hehe
Krill: (np, just influenced the humour, Kalin doesn;t know about Kaz)
3:08 AM Dreylin: OK, and do you have a reasonable offer you'd accept ... say just Taco?
Krill: What about cities between Taco/EE and Hun/tamales?
3:09 AM No cities between them?
3:10 AM Dreylin: I think we would want once between Hun/Tamales, but we might agree to nothing founded North of the line between them - and similar for your side.
3:11 AM Krill: I think I would have to request a city 1 East of the peak by EE. It is 1 tile more south that Taco
3:12 AM Dreylin: Hmmmm
Krill: I am not making a unilateral offer here, I would have to ask Memphus.
Just as I suspect you have to ask Kalin
Dreylin: Indeed, and I don't have the power to accept without Kalin
3:13 AM Well it sounds like there may something we could reach an agreement on
Krill: possibly
Dreylin: (not logged in at the moment)
3:14 AM Krill: Memphus is not responding either
and 3am here
not exactly thinking straight
Dreylin: Sure
Well we're not in a rush to play the turn now
Krill: oh, no.
3:15 AM I screwed up tbh
Dreylin: Ended too soon?
Krill: Meant to play at end of the turn. Not at the start
Dreylin: Oh really?
Well, just put off your declaration for another turn...
and we'll play first next turn.
Krill: Basically
3:16 AM But alas, too fast for my own good sometimes
One point though
Dreylin: Heh
Krill: Any peace deal between us we will obviously abide by, but if you go gifting units to sunrise to attack us with...
3:17 AM Dreylin: Well I would suspect that there may have to be a "sunrise" provision in our deal
we are not likely to let him hang out to dry....
Krill: I understand
3:18 AM Dreylin: & would you be prepared to roll sunrise into our peace deal?
Krill: In principle? Sure. I'd probably go all Templars and try to work out a border.
3:19 AM Dreylin: Heh
and what timeframe are we talking here? 60/80/100t?
3:20 AM more?
Krill: 40-50ish? 60 is a long time. So is 40, really. The last NAP started was, what, 25 turns long.
3:21 AM Dreylin: Well you did say "long term peace treaty"
Krill: I suppose I deserve that, when short term is to me 5 turns...
perspective alters
Anyway
3:22 AM Do you see the desert hill to the east of Taco?
on the other side of the freshwater Lake?
Dreylin: Yes
3:23 AM You want everything North of that?
Krill: We would want a city on that tile. We have no wish to go any further east. That is wanted simply for defensive purposes.
3:24 AM Basically everything north of Taco/desert hill, yeah.
You scout gone up there?
Dreylin: Can't remember
Krill: that land gets pretty boring after a while
3:25 AM Dreylin: Well I should sleep, and have to confer with Kalin
Krill: Ditto actually
Dreylin: Framework is this:
50t NAP
3:26 AM (to include sunrise in some form)
we give you Taco & settling rights to E & N
you put a city 1E of Peak tile
we potentiall put a city between Hun/Tamales, but not North of either
3:27 AM with further details still to be negotiated
agreed?
Krill: That is the framework...
3:28 AM Dreylin: OK, let's confer with our "other halves" and the reconvene sometime tomorrow
Krill: I would like sunrise to be a full party in these negoitation myself...sorry, but I can't stop thinking of him as your vassal...
3:29 AM and that is mainly for the desert hill part. Get everything wwritten in 1 treaty
but yeah, we can confer.
Dreylin: OK, we will include sunrise as well
in our discussions
3:30 AM OK, we'll talk more tomorrow; time to write something to sunrise & Kalin
'night
Krill: night

[Krill]

Just chatted with Dreylin. He said that they were thinking that Taco and all lands north is a steep price, 4-5 cities (I calculate 4, tightly packed). It's looking like war...

Weird thing is, that means he thinks he can hold Taco, and after seeing exactly what he has at Hun, there is no way he can hold out up north. So I wonder what he is up to.

[Krill]

Screenshots and report once the turn rolls. I was going to do one for this turn, but when I took the screenshots they failed to get the mouseovers included (stupid CIV). Just need to wait and see what the Lins do.

[Krill]

Further talk with Dreylin. Not sure where this is heading...

6:51 PM Dreylin: Are you there?
Krill: yup
6:52 PM good move on the road cut
Dreylin: Every turn we delay you....
What would your feelings be on a longer-term NAP
Krill: Define long term?
6:53 PM Dreylin: Heh
100t
Krill: Combined with other deals, I'm OK with that, in principle
Dreylin: additional other deals?
6:54 PM such as?
6:55 PM Krill: We are both on opposite side of the world, politically. If we weren't quite so polarized, had other advantages, ie you were trading me silks, you agreed to take Toaism into your cities etc, then it makes a 100t NAP more appealing
6:56 PM Just agreeing to a 100t NAP with no other strings attached, which I can understand is good for both of us on the surface, might not be without its' disadvantages
6:58 PM Dreylin: Certainly, however we feel that we are giving you much with the framework 50t deal and that lengthening the NAP would adjust the balance of that deal more to our liking
On your suggestions though:
Krill: Understandable
Dreylin: Spices or Sugar - I think we may be able to do that (no Silks)
6:59 PM Taoism - again, we may be able to work with that ... bizarrely it is so far the only religion to spread to us naturally
Krill: I'd be willign to gift a missionary
Dreylin: and then we would have to spread it the rest of the way?
7:00 PM e.g. 1 extra city every 15t or somesuch?
Krill: In principle, that's ok with us
May have misunderstood that actually
7:01 PM You are saying you would be obligated to spread it amongst your own cities, 1 city every 15 turns etc?
Dreylin: Well you said you would gift "a" missionary
Krill: Ah
ok
7:02 PM Dreylin: implying that responsibility to spread would be ours
Krill: as I said before, grammar is not my strong point
Dreylin: Ah, so you would be offering to send your own Missionaries
and we would not have to spread ourselves?
Krill: Well, if you expand out to 15 cities, that's 600 hammers in missionariwes
7:03 PM Dreylin: That's less likely if we cede you all that territory...
Krill: No retort...
got me there
7:04 PM Dreylin: So you'd supply the missionaries to facilitate spread - that changes the balance of that deal
especially if we could have some control over where they spread
7:05 PM Krill: Maybe not all of them, but a significant amount. 5? And all gifted to you.
I don't know how many cities you have, or plan to have
7:06 PM so that's just a shot in the dark
But I also have to spread the religion to my own cities
Dreylin: Of course.
Well 5 is a number we could work with
on an approximate timeframe of one per 10t, say?
7:07 PM Krill: sure
Dreylin: Hmmmm
So basically, we can buy an additional 50t NAP by:
supplying you with a Happy resource
and accepting Taoism into our lands
7:08 PM (with 5 supplied missionaries)
Krill: how does sunrise fit into this?
Dreylin: Well, we would assume that he is covered by the same NAP
7:09 PM but would he be required to contribute further?
Krill: Basically, there was one other thing
7:10 PM Dreylin: (waits for deal-breaking clause)
7:11 PM Krill: 100t NAP is long, alliances can change, tech will speed by, but once agreed to I will honour the agreement. The problem that I can forsee isn't really to do with you, but if anyone uses OB to attack through your lands into me, I'd consider that a breach of the NAP
I just don;t want anyone walking through your lands to attack me
7:12 PM Dreylin: Sure
I think that could be worked in
7:13 PM Well I guess I need to speak with Kalin & sunrise
and see what they think.
Krill: OK. I'll probably talk to sunrise about it as well
Dreylin: OK.

[sooooo]

So are you basically thinking you can outbuild everyone now?

[Krill]

Not sure. I do know that I can take and hold Taco no matter what happens, and all territory north of it. I don't think I'll make much head way against the Lins afterwards, but they aren't going to make any headway against me either.

As I was saying to Memphus, it depends how we phrase it to the NUTA. We could go to war, take Taco, suffer some losses, and then play defense. Or we could get Taco in a peace treaty, and give a shedload of gold to keep research up and running. dsp I can get a deal in place to give a Prophet, maybe even get a deal in place with mh/Kodii as well for a GS. Ruff I owe settlers and workers as well, and Shady I'm helping with advice. If I find something I can offer Imhotep I think I can build for everyone, and not just myself.

So, wait and see what they want in exchange for Taco, and if sunrise will agree to a 100 turn NAP.

[Krill]

Just for future reference. I may have an out, but I doubt it.

me: So...
How likely is it that we get a peace treaty?
for the full 100 turns
Lins: Honestly?
depends a lot on sunrise
me: hehe
Lins: it is the truth
me: Gotta admit that is entertaining
oh, I know, I do believe you, it's still kinda funny though.
Lins: Yeah, given your history

Later on I did ask what he would say if I offered the same deal minus anything regarding sunrise, and agreed not to attack him unilaterally. He deftly ignored the issue...which suggests that while he is happy to grow with peace, he is also bullish about the war, long term.

[Krill]

Enjoy the picture

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417...7units.jpg

[Swiss Pauli]

So, if it comes to a fight, are you going after the LBs on a hill at Taco?

[Krill]

Yup. With 3 cats to collateral with and a fourth to bombard, and the HA to throw away if need be, the top CG LB won't have great odds, considering that the lead ele is strength 9.6, and before the battle the LB is only about 14.0. And any extra units underneath are just going to get catted to hell, so if he gets extra LB in there, no worries.