League of Legends General Discussion Thread

[Krill]

Range, and her ult is also disengage in addition to the jump. The point is, as you said, she has similar power spikes, but range is the one stat that cannot be itemised for. So it's a "counter" in that those first 5 levels can be used to beat Vayne but late game she doesn't fall off in damage output compared to Vayne, and she has advantages that Vayne doesn't have. Which is why I said "Counter" rather than "Trist outright beats Vayne cos of X, Y, and Z".

[Dantski]

Because Quinn and Teemo are both substantially underpowered ADs. Picking them to ‘counter’ Vayne might work in lane (emphasis on might) but will hurt your team because come the teamfighting phase

But you don't have to have just 1 ranged AD champ, the point is to put Vayne behind and have a way to severely reduce her damage output later on. You can put Ezrael or another AD in top or middle to have a "real AD". I could counter myself by saying they could lane swap so their duo lane with Vayne doesn't need to 2v2 but I don't think that really happens much in soloQ.

[v8mark]

Because Quinn and Teemo are both substantially underpowered ADs. Picking them to ‘counter’ Vayne might work in lane (emphasis on might) but will hurt your team because come the teamfighting phase

But you don't have to have just 1 ranged AD champ, the point is to put Vayne behind and have a way to severely reduce her damage output later on. You can put Ezrael or another AD in top or middle to have a "real AD". I could counter myself by saying they could lane swap so their duo lane with Vayne doesn't need to 2v2 but I don't think that really happens much in soloQ.

True. But the reason you put ADs in a duo lane is that they scale well with items and not levels. If you put an AD in a solo you're effectively costing yourself that advantage. Teemo is also your classic 'win lane lose game' champ as he contributes very little outside of the laning phase. He can splitpush, but that's easily shut down by any team comp that picks cc and knows what oracles and pink wards are (which is any team above about silver 2.)

I will say overall that counters in bottom lane usually revolve around supports rather than carries. For example, Lulu counters Vayne reasonably well as her E reveals Vayne in stealth, and her W is very effective due to her inability to autoattack or tumble. Janna counters Trist because her shield blocks Trist's E damage and her Q disrupts Trist's rocket jump. Apart from a couple of isolated cases, supports do more than ADs in this area simply because they have more skills.

[abuzeus]

I'm struggling to see how Trist counters Vayne, too. Trist has very similar power spikes to Vayne: Trist perhaps has slightly better levels 1-5, but Vayne gets her big power spike much earlier than Trist (with ult and BotRK), and they have very similar levels of late-game power. Perhaps with her rocket jump and ult to disengage in the case of a 1v1 duel? But then you can say that about any AD carry with any sort of escape/disengage tool (Corki, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Graves)

Tristana is my favourite champion right now. I would say that Trist is a pretty good pick against Vayne, at least I had some success against Vaynes on my level (judging by normal opponents and rating of friends, that would be somewhere in Silver, hopefully at the upper end. Beware of self bias though).

Early levels you are clearly a bit stronger, although the supports mainly decide who wins early game. You start out at equal range, and the all-in potential if the jungler comes is definitely higher for Trist. If not, E-> auto is harass that adds up over time. If you play it correctly and can stay in lane long enough (or if you get a kill) you can probably get away with buying a naked BF (assuming you start with Dorans and lifesteal quints). Vayne's harass potential is pretty low, but yours is very notable. I put three points in E and then max Q. Three point E and +55 AD (BF plus Dorans) means you can really put a dent into Vayne, as long as you don't commit. As Tristana often pushes anyway, you can harass them under tower, so if they fight back, they lose CS. The DoT on E also reduces healing, so the sustain from BotrK is less effective over five seconds, and your harass sticks.

Vayne's power spike is with BotrK, but IE is only 600 gold more expensive. All things equal, you should be ahead a few CS, so I would say you get your power spike not much later. You probably also have a few points in Q already. Trist's advantage in later teamfights is threefold: First, you have two non-flash disengages, the knockback is similar to Vayne's, but the jump actually gets you out of trouble. So if you have more than one person chasing you, it's better. Second, you have much more range on later levels. At level 12, you already have 100 more range than Vayne, and that makes a big difference. Vayne has to all-in in teamfights. Trist always has at least one out, and is in less danger in the first place. Third, your jump gets resets. If the enemy bruiser chases you off and you and your peel kill him, it's much easier for Trist to rejoin the fight than for Vayne. Yes, I counted Rocket Jump thrice there. It's just that good.

And finally, a six item Trist should beat a six item Vayne, assuming that Q is up and that Vayne does not get the stealth from her ult (or a condemn). I think the latter is a reasonable assumption at six items, since you will have Oracle's then. For the former, you can always opt out of a fight with W. Before six items, I sometimes buy a pink just to fight Vayne or Akali or the like (or have my support do it).

Of course the IE rush might be a noob tactic, but I feel that Vayne is one of the champions against which you can get away with it (yellowpete, for example, always rushes BotrK. Phreak I heard say that BotrK is stupid and you should get IE first. I stick with what works for me...). Old Draven or Caitlyn, on the other hand, create so much almost unavoidable incoming damage that you need extra lifesteal in lane, and then you might as well get BotrK (which is good on Trist, but not as good as IE). Also, Vayne does not push very well, and being pushed under tower is a nightmare with Trist.

If Vayne gets a few extra kills early, all bets are off, of course.

That's my opinion. Stronger players might disagree

[Sullla]

Tristana is not a counterpick to Vayne. Not at all. Vayne counterpicks are ADs who take advantage of her weak laning phase; Caitlyn is the best choice here, as Cait wins lane handily against Vayne in an even skill matchup. Pre-nerf Draven was an even better choice, doesn't exist now though. You can also do well post-6 with ADs who have hard crowd control, like Ashe and Varus, to shut down Vayne's tumbling. In general against Vayne, stay away from the walls and don't try to duel her 1 vs 1 under any circumstances, since she excels at precisely that role.

[Krill]

You can counter something in more than one way, and scaling into the late game just as well as Vayne is one of them, Sullla.

[Gustaran]

You can counter something in more than one way, and scaling into the late game just as well as Vayne is one of them, Sullla.

The definition of "counterpick" is certainly not "scaling into the lategame just as well".

[Krill]

Did I say counterpick?

[v8mark]

Discussion took a slightly weird turn, but I broadly agree with Sullla. I wouldn't pick Tristana to counter Vayne. With the caveat that I often pick Trist into Vayne because I play her an awful lot, and I don't think she is countered by her. Caitlyn (range) and Graves (burst) are much better counters. And I agree with Gustaran that 'doing something approximately as well as another champion' is pretty far from any definition of 'counter' that I've ever heard.

Some points about abuzeus's post:

Vayne's power spike is with BotrK, but IE is only 600 gold more expensive. All things equal, you should be ahead a few CS, so I would say you get your power spike not much later.

No, Vayne's power spike is first of all with her ult (her ult is SO good - Trist gets a power spike around this time too) and then a further spike with BotRK, and it's a MUCH bigger power spike than Trist getting IE. Vayne is strong mid-game; Trist is very weak mid-game (of which more later).

And finally, a six item Trist should beat a six item Vayne, assuming that Q is up and that Vayne does not get the stealth from her ult (or a condemn).

Firstly, this is irrelevant. ADs never ever face each other in a fight to the death with six items. That's just not a situation that ever happens in any normal game of League of Legends. Six-item ADs are primarily judged on their ability to kill tanks. Second, I'm not sure it's true... I think for a fair fight you have to assume Vayne's ult is up, and I think it would be close.

Of course the IE rush might be a noob tactic, but I feel that Vayne is one of the champions against which you can get away with it

No, you should always rush BotRK, and I'd be surprised if Phreak said that recently. IE doesn't benefit Vayne very much... she benefits from attack speed and doesn't really need AD because of the AD on her ult. BotRK also benefits Vayne in her chasing skill, and it complements her tank-killing abilities.

Finally, some general points about Trist. The thing about Trist that is that she's basically a burst caster until she hits about level 9-10. She has no skills that scale with AD at all; in fact, three of her skills scale with AP. So getting big AD items isn't nearly as impactful in lane as it is on other ADs, and her skills are much more important by comparison. Once you lose your burst, which happens at about level 8, you start putting points in Q, which means it's maxed at about level 13-14. (Usually my first point goes into Q at level 8, but then I usually max it. So 9 is either Q or E depending on the situation, 10 is Q, 11 is R, 12 is Q, 13 is Q, 14 is Q if necessary.) That is when you really start scaling with AD, assuming you've not fallen too far behind. It's also about when your range really starts ramping up to something noticeable. By this time you'll typically have at least IE and PD, and you'll be working on the Last Whisper. When you get LW, that's when you really start to scale and become a big threat as an AD carry, as you can begin to shred tanks from long range with a 90% attack speed boost.

But in the downtime between level 8 and level 14, Trist is very weak indeed. She doesn't have any meaningful burst any more, as you don't have AP, and her only AD scaling ability is still being levelled. She just can't compete with the majority of AD carries during this period (and she's certainly a LOT weaker than Vayne is).

[Gold Ergo Sum]

I hadn't played a game in over six months, but I logged back in the other day. I am rusty as hell, but I should be around more. I would guess I can still press the stun button and stand around with my auras as Taric. Anything else is probably a bridge too far right now.