[SPOILERS] Margarita and the Lurkers

[Maga_R]

Also I dedlurking this if you people let me

You are very welcome, retep . If you would like to participate in testing, we can send you the sandbox - Slaze is currently redoing it, my first attempt was very buggy . Let us know.

Sury>Willian IMO though if this map have a lot of coast...

Well, the amount of coast is anybody's guess ... Neither of us was brave enough to play non-FIN among almost exclusively FIN leaders - we think most people will choose FIN.

Btw sorry if I sound to rude but you know my english is not so good that I can be polite

No worries, don't think you are rude . I like honesty, it is refreshing - and you were very right on sailing this early being insane . English is also obviously not my first language.

[Maga_R]

Correspondence with Jovan. Leader picking:

Yes, Willem is my 2nd choice, fin/cre. Playing with him will be easy, because we wouldn't need to think about Stonehenge, monuments and caste system

Starting techs:

Hi Jovan,
are you sure that agri+fishing would not be the best starting tech combo? I think it is worth to be tested.
Couple of reason to like agri+fish:
* we will play FIN and got fish - improved, it will be very strong, 5f 3c tile. (our other food is 6f 1c irrigated corn and 4f 2h cow)
* unlike worker, workboat can be built while growing the city
what do you think?

Civ choice:

Without Pacal, our +25% worker bonus is not available, so having early fishing boats would make bigger difference now. Civs with fishing are more attractive now (Netherlands, America and Native America).

Also, I think that leader testing is not necessary. I already know that fish+agri civs are the best for the beginning on this map, because we don't need mining, hunting and mysticism.
After building workboat and worker, capital would grow to size 3 while building warriors (for reducing barb activity nearby), and start building settlers
For early beginning, Babylon, Egypt and France are better than Maya and Mali, but Maya and Mali have excellent resourceless defensive UUs and good UBs.

One of the problems is that we will be picking 8th and there are only 3 fishing + agri civs, so if even 3 out of 7 teams picking in front of us would realize what we did we are not getting an agri+fishing civ .

If they take Native America and America, don't worry. If the fish would be the best tile we have, then it would be a pity. We also have corn and cow, which makes fish less important comparing to situation when having only fish. If we get Ottomans or Sumeria, it would also be great. There is really a small difference between our top 5 civs. They will take India and Inca, so it increases our chances to get something of those 5.
One important thing: Map was changed, so having India would save 0 instead 2 turns in improving of first 2 tiles. That places India lower on the list.
I'm not going to play sandbox tests, I don't like it in this situation which doesn't need it much. According to my strategy from earlier mail, I would build settlers when capital reaches 3. Worker would build roads after improving corn and cow, in order to accelerate our expansion.

1. Dutch (fish+agr)
2. Native America (fish+agr)
3. America (fish+agr)
4. Ottomans (agr+wheel)
5. Sumeria (agr+wheel)
6. Maya (myst + mining)
7. Mali (mining + wheel)
8. Babylon (agr+wheel)
9. Egypt (agr+wheel)
10. India (myst + mining)
11. France(agr+wheel)

[Maga_R]

Jovan is a master of playing 1 vs. 1 MP, but he may not realize is that in our situation map is supposed to be balanced and likely giving everybody early access to metals. Moreover, distances between capitols are supposed to be large. Both these fact make resourceless UU less appealing, so I would downgrade both Maya and Mali, but especially Mali.

Maya has a very interesting synergy with ball courts - but Slaze says we are not likely to use it until very rate. And starting techs look pretty terrible on this map and for a CRE leader . Mali is not much better, could be a possibility if playing IND. I would rather include fishing+mining civs, Slaze alsa wants BW early and retep seemed to recommend fishing+mining as best combo.

[Maga_R]

I think we should also add Japan (fishing+wheel) to the list. The wheel cost the same as agri, they are both most expensive techs. We will have plenty of time to research agriculture before worker is ready, AH should be also ready on time.

Japan's UU looks good - a maceman with 2 extra first strikes . UB is not that bad, too, a coal plant with extra +10% hammers. It does come very late, though.

I do not think I have ever seen Japan played in any of the MP games - but I have read few so far. Perhaps because of horrible associations with Toku? I do not see why it would be bad for us - in fact, I like it more than Mali because of better starting techs for us and better UU, imho. Altough Mali's UB is much more useful, since it comes so much earlier (hammer % bonus is the same).

EDIT: Actually, Shale Plant is a coal plant that does not require coal - so it makes me to like Japan even more . Although if we do not have access to coal by the time shale pnat becomes available, it will be not good anyway ... Perhaps I am just biased - I like RL Japan .

[Azza]

Japan is rarely picked because the starting techs are awful for an unknown start, highly situational for a known start. Their UB is a non-factor because of how late it comes, and the UU is nice, but not worth picking for.

[Maga_R]

Japan is rarely picked because the starting techs are awful for an unknown start, highly situational for a known start. Their UB is a non-factor because of how late it comes, and the UU is nice, but not worth picking for.

Yeah, but it seems that we are in this rare situation where Japan's techs can shine. What do you think? I agree that UU be a nice bonus, not the reason for picking them.

[SevenSpirits]

Yeah, Japan is mostly notable for its techs. It's worth pointing out that the samurai requires iron (unlike normal macemen), and this could (rarely) end up a big problem. Also, its first strikes are meaningless against the premier combat unit of the era, knights.

Pindicator chose Japan in PBEM39 (due to the techs being good in that particular setup), but I don't think the UU ever came into play.

[Commodore]

Samurai do get a mild boost for non-Agg leaders; the Drill 1 start means they can take shock/cover for only two XP, and Drill 2/Formation at the doable five XP. Plus, Drill 3-4 are nice for anti-collateral.

That being said, I would be astonished if Fishing/Wheel was the best tech set.

[Maga_R]

Yeah, Japan is mostly notable for its techs. It's worth pointing out that the samurai requires iron (unlike normal macemen), and this could (rarely) end up a big problem. Also, its first strikes are meaningless against the premier combat unit of the era, knights.

Pindicator chose Japan in PBEM39 (due to the techs being good in that particular setup), but I don't think the UU ever came into play.

OK, Seven, will be less excited about the Samurais, then . Good point about them typically having to fight knights . But at least they are in no respect worse than regular macemen, not like another civs UU (*cough* Sumeria *cough*) .

[Maga_R]

Samurai do get a mild boost for non-Agg leaders; the Drill 1 start means they can take shock/cover for only two XP, and Drill 2/Formation at the doable five XP. Plus, Drill 3-4 are nice for anti-collateral.

That being said, I would be astonished if Fishing/Wheel was the best tech set.

Yeah, another good point . Starting with a promotion - even Drill I - is always something .