[SPOILERS] Margarita and the Lurkers

[Maga_R]

That being said, I would be astonished if Fishing/Wheel was the best tech set.

So far, the test results are:

1) no fishing: worker on corn t15 (takes 5 turns to improve)
2) fishing + (agri OR wheel): fish improved by t8, worker on corn t18, AH ready t21, worker on cow t24

So in terms of tile improvement, fishing+agri is equivalent to fishing+wheel here (and agri and wheel have the same costs) and so far seem the best starting techs . If we were EXP, it will be different, though, worker will take only 12 turns in 1).

[retep]

I don't really use sandbox. For me all the fun is doing the maths in my head.
So I was thinking about this start instead of working and yes Agri/fishing is the best option, the next best combo is Min/fishing though this is slightly slower.
If you go agri/fish then what tech path have you think? I have think of two that have different results.
AH>mining>BW>wheel.
This will give you by turn 36: Capital size 2, 2 worker, 1 settler, 1 warrior, improved fish, corn, cows, 1 forest chop. Sadly wheel need 4 turns to finish so no roads for the second city.
AH>wheel>minig>BW
This will give you by turn 34:
a) Capital size 3 (two turns to grow to 4), 1 worker, 1 settler, 1 warrior, improved fish, corn, cows, grass mine. 4 turns to finish BW.
b) Capital size 3 (two turns to grow to 4), 1 worker, 1 settler, 1 warrior, improved fish, corn, cows, 2 1/2 roads to somewhere, 4 turns to finish BW.

I'm 99% that the math is okay

[retep]

1.Dutch
2.Native American
3.American
4.England
5.Rome

I think you don't need more than five but that are the best options you have.

ABout the barbs they can enter you borders if you have 3 cities. Though is better to fog bust to avoid dealing with the barbs at all.

[Maga_R]

I did not have much time to do testing yet, and anyway Slaze's tests will be conclusive, not mine, as I will likely introduce too much "player effect" :D. But will do the tests for the fun of it anyway .

Still exchanging emails with Jovan:

Samurai is UU

It was late at night and I was trying to convince Jovan that Samurai is an interesting UB .

Anyway, having forested plains hill helps buildding workboat, only 8 turns. Then worker will be done in 10 turns. Without fishing, we would have worker in 15 turns, but without workboat. I was thinking about Japan, but I wasn't sure how many turns some tech would take to research on that map.

I simply prefer Native America more than America and Japan, because Native America has UU and UB which could be used sometimes, although it helps mostly in early wars. Japan and America have almost useless UB, Japan's Samurai is OK UU.
If we can tech agri+AH in 24 turns (8WB+10worker+5corn+1move), then Japan would be choice 3, after Dutch and Native America. Then 4,5 and 6 would be America, Ottomans and Sumeria.
Those fishing civs give significant starting advantage when forested plains hill is available, but in long-term I'm not sure if Ottoman and Sumerian bonuses are greater. If map is very big, then Sumeria would be good.

Sumeria just taken . Apparently, most teams thinks along similar lines, all picks so far where high on our list, too. I was only a bit surprised Sumeria was picked before a leader. I guess now Mehmed will be gone soon, too, and Lizzy for sure. Wonder if LP will choose Egypt again. Glad that Inca is gone, if the Pacal guys would get it, we will all be in trouble .

[Maga_R]

Based on my correspondence with Jovan and Sumeria being taken, that is I believe Jovan's current list:

1. Dutch (fish+agr)
2. Native America (fish+agr)
3. Japan (fishing +wheel)
4. America (fish+agr)
5. Ottomans (agr+wheel)

Retep's list:

1.Dutch
2.Native American
3.American
4.England
5.Rome

Maga's list:

1. Dutch (fish+agr)
2. Japan (fishing +wheel)
3. Ottomans (agr+wheel)
4. America (fish+agr)
5. France (agri + wheel)

Slaze will do the testings this weekend and then will give us conclusive answers on best staring techs and perhaps his civ list.

[Maga_R]

Picks so far:

1. Eagles and Condors (Kurumi): Pacal (FIN/EXP)
2. Dinosaurs (Whiteye): Darius (FIN/ORG)
3. M & M (us): Willem (FIN/CRE)
4. BowsAi: Mansa Musa (FIN/SPI)
5. Orgynized: Huayna Capaq (FIN/IND) of Netherlands (agriculture + fishing) (Netherlands seem the best civ for start, the only one iND leader in the game will be very powerful, too)
6. Blame Caledorn: Izzy (EXP/SPI) of Inca (agriculture + myst) (a really powerful combo: EXP Inca).
7. Bears (Yuufo): Vicky (FIN/IMP) of India (myst + mining)
8. D & D: Sury (EXP/CRE) of Byzantium (mysticism +wheel) (for CRE synergy with hippodrome, I guess)
9. Cannibals (Classical Hero): Napoleon (ORG/CHA) of Sumeria (agriculture + wheel) (first 'crazy' pick? I mean Nappy )
10. Barteq: Ragnar (FIN/AGG) of Rome (fishing+mining) (hopefully we are correct in interpretation of Plako's 'capitols far away' setting . Of course, they should be LP neighbors - he wished to be close to barbarians after all ). BTW, the starting techs make Rome very appealing on this map anyway.

[retep]

To three thing since I'm in my break.

Calderon is with scooter? If so I think they might go isabella or Mehmed.
Not sure why you think agri/wheel is a good idea seems more slower.
Also I think you have a good chance of taking the dutch if you want.

[retep]

Wait, Napoleon of Sumeria? weird

[Maga_R]

To three thing since I'm in my break.

Calderon is with scooter? If so I think they might go isabella or Mehmed.
Not sure why you think agri/wheel is a good idea seems more slower.
Also I think you have a good chance of taking the dutch if you want.

Yes, Scooter is a dedlurker for "Blame Caledorn" (YossarianLives + Caledorn).

We thought agriculture + wheel will be the strongest combo if we will not get to see the map before we pick. Even on this map it is not so bad, but we want Ottomans mainly for their superb UB and also not bad UU. France, I put in for techs and UU, although I did not checked fishing+mining yet, so I may change my vote to England. Rome taken already anyway...

Yes, it seems that our chances of landing "completely unrestricted" Wiillem of Netherlands are good - so lurkers please .

Wait, Napoleon of Sumeria? weird

Yeah, especially that Vicky (FIN/IMP) and Mehmed (EXP/ORG) were still available . Perhaps there is some deep plan in here - will see . But somehow I doubt it . Although Sumeria should be a strong pick - unless they will end up to close to an Aggresive Rome .

[Maga_R]

Calderon is with scooter? If so I think they might go isabella or Mehmed.

Wow, retep, you were right - Blame Caledorn picked Izzy! I would take Mehmed ...

But any, Inca definitely has great synergy with EXP, so definitely not a bad choice.

I wonder if LP's team will pick Egypt ... Mali and Ethiopia would also make sense for them, or Native America. I kinda assume they would go for an early Stonehedge. Being *the only* IND leader on the map - which was decided now, when BC picked izzy - Lord Parkin's team will be very dangerous. I hope at least there is a lot of stone and marble on the map, to give other civs some shots at competing for early wonders ...