Get Rich or Die Tryin': HidingKneel and Mardoc tackle the Khazad (Spoilers!)

[Mardoc]

Ah, the wonderful dilemmas of a three-way game. Given the situation, I think I agree with the change of course. You didn't even mention the other little detail:



That's a 2-turn Tower, if I've been paying attention. He might have cash-rushed it - or maybe he really does have that many hammers. It's going to be rather tight, it appears.

Agreed that we need to balance between military and continued expansion, though. One thing you didn't include in your missive, is the effort to get Blight launched. Maybe we should ask Jalapeno to spread AV a little more aggressively? Maybe we should even volunteer to spread it in Dwarven cities? Three more points of AC, and the Kurios will be hurting.

A first strike given to the Kurios could hurt a lot, yes. That said - he's not Raiders, which limits the damage to only something like 6 tile radius. Pile a lot of axes in our border cities, build Walls, have adepts put up Wall of Stone, and of course give the axes Iron, Enchanted Blade, and the Stonewarden spell, and we can probably hold just fine. Put those axes somewhere with a Siege Workshop and we can even swap them over to Chariots when offense comes along.

Edit: Oh, also! We need to tell WK that we're switching targets. He might actually prefer fighting the Kurios, since they border (I think).

EditEdit: If we get WK on our side, we can invade directly toward Kwythellar. Which I think is where the Towers are going up.

[HidingKneel]

EditEdit: If we get WK on our side, we can invade directly toward Kwythellar. Which I think is where the Towers are going up.

I'm not sure I like that idea... it'll mean bringing a smaller force, and it'll mean that our druids aren't in a position to defend our own land if necessary. Much better to get Jalapeno on board (which should be easy, since he's the one pushing for this). Let him attack Kwythellar, while we march on Naggarond. I imagine that'll be much more lightly defended (and we might not even need to worry about Kuriotate attack at all). But I guess it all depends on how TBS wants to play this from here. He might come back with an offer not to build the Towers (which I'd probably accept), he might go for an all-out push to build them before we can stop him (depending on how many dispel mages he has, he could get pretty far along during ten turns of GA), or he might delay his plans to build more defenses. I'm guessing the second, which would make our job the easy one.

[HidingKneel]

New turn is finally here.

Jalapeno is eager:

That's great news; glad to have you on board! Just today I caught sight of a 2nd Kurio mage (this time meta AND air - I think he's hot switching nodes to get free promos on upgrade). I have vision on 2 air, 1 body, 1 meta, and an enchantment node with a stack of adepts/mages sitting on it.

I am happy to agree to your conditions pending some strategic adjustments.

1. Leave Elohim alone: I removed his capacity to threaten me this turn (i.e. his crusader stack). I will hold off on attacking any of his cities until TBS is dealt with or you agree it benefits that effort. For example, I could raze Cahir Abbey to trigger blight.

2. Move hunter away: done. He'll be heading south-east to scout out Ljosalfar lands.

3. Cancel all deals with TBS: This one is tricky, since I owe him a few things and don't want to renege. I'm currently loaning him shadow mana (10-turn deal for not competing for drama bard) and clams (indefinite in return for peace deal - canceled by war). Finally, he and I have a rolling NAP with 5-turn cooldown. If I initiate it now, he'll start fortifying borders. If we don't attack right away, he may get complacent, but I prefer timing the cooldown with our attack to give him the least warning possible.

I'd like to avoid breaking resource deals I promised earlier. Cooldown now v. later is most important decision as it has strategic implications. Thoughts? I'll hold off sending the save to TBS for another 5.5 hrs in case you really want to push initiating the cooldown now. I'm fully committed to this. I just kicked off a golden age and switched to military civics, and even drafted my first moroi this turn.

Regards,

Jalepeno

He's supplying TBS with Shadow mana? Uh oh. I checked the trade window: TBS had Chaos, Death, and Entropy this turn. So he's working on a tower of Necromancy now. Worse still, it means he has the ability to convert three nodes in a single turn. So there won't be any delay between completing one tower and starting the next.

Let's do some quick calculating. Last time I counted that Kwythellar gets 60 hammers from its tiles. In a Golden Age, add twenty more. It's size 35, so TBS gets 35 from the Pillar of Chains (maybe more if he's got buildings that give unhappiness, like a Tax Office?) Maybe he gets another five more from specialists... so around 120 base hammers. +25% for forge, +50% for God King, and he's at 210 hammers per turn.

Not sure how much overflow he got from the Tower of Alteration: let's put it at 105. He just got a Great Engineer in Kwythellar. That buys him one lesser tower for free (can't use it on the big tower, since it's a ritual). He's got about 1000 gold on hand, which can buy him another 200 hammers of tower. So I could see him doing something like: start Tower of Necromany this turn (get ~315 hammers into it). Cash rush next turn (approximate cost: 1000 gp) for 210 hammers of overflow into Tower of Elementalism. Finish that in two turns, then use the Engineer for a Tower of Divination. Takes him four turns after this one, plus he has full overflow into the big tower. He's also got to tech Divination and Arcane Lore in that time, but that ought to be easy with his GNP. Then it'll take him six more turns to finish the big tower. Kuriotate win a Tower of Mastery victory on turn 116.

For our part, we can launch an attack on turn 115. Not nearly fast enough. We'll have to launch from Grigori territory, as you recommend. If we do that, we can maybe put ourselves next to the city on our turn 115 and cast Crush. Then he wins before we can attack.

Hopefully Jalapeno has something better up his sleeve.

Anyway, it's not looking good.

The turn itself: first of all, the Griffon attacked my Chariot as expected. Time for payback. I first promoted one of my chariots to Flanking I and let it take a shot:



Lost that battle, unfortunately. But was able to clean up with the hunter, earning enough xp for a subdue animal promotion. Except that now there are no awesome animals to subdue...

Our first hawk did a flyover of Kuriotate territory:



There are those troublesome arcane units...

He doesn't seem to have much in Naggarond:



Then again, he doesn't need much in Naggarond. Worrying about Naggarond is a trap. Worrying about defense is a trap. We need to go all offense, I think.

Finally got a good dungeon result:



No idea what to do with it, though. Jalapeno's already founded Empyrean (he fired a GA and converted this turn).

Here's what we're building:



I think we want to get ourselves a Siege Workshop in Brutengrad when it finishes the granary. That's where we should be doing our mass upgrade (turn 112ish) and sending troops through the Grigori land to attack Kwythellar.

EOT demos:



The Calabim and Kuriotates are both ahead of us, of course, since they're running GAs.

Dwarven vaults: meh (they actually dipped low at one point this turn, since I was upgrading Stonewardens, which means an unhappy face next turn).

[HidingKneel]

Actually, let me revise that down. Possibly TBS could finish the lesser towers in three more turns if he's got a few SoKs, but that only gives him 3 turns to get Divination and Arcane Lore in place. Even with his GNP, that's not enough time unless he's already started, which seems unlikely given his stash of 1000 gold. So I think 4 turns is a safe estimate. But the big tower: I think he could possibly do that in five. He could tech Arete after Arcane Lore and swap after he was one turn into the big tower. That could be an extra ten base hammers... which would almost be enough to give him a turn 115 victory.

OTOH, it looks like TBS just finished teching Bowyers. Maybe he wants Longbows to defend Kwythellar from assault.
But another possibility is that he's angling for Machinery. Machinery gives a free Great Engineer, but that won't come fast enough to help him build the lesser towers. But it's possible he doesn't realize the Tower of Mastery is a ritual, and is thinking to rush it with a bunch of engineers. If he makes that mistake, it might give us another turn or two of breathing room.

[Mardoc]

It sounds like we need to give Jalapeno permission/encouragement to go raze cities . Subtract a bunch of pop from Kwythellar, and we subtract a bunch of hammers. Subtract pop elsewhere and we remove some of that GNP he's using for speed. Won't buy us all we need, but even just a couple turns will be very useful.

We could help by cash rushing an AV temple and some missionaries. Or by razing some elven cities, if we can afford the distraction.

[HidingKneel]

It sounds like we need to give Jalapeno permission/encouragement to go raze cities . Subtract a bunch of pop from Kwythellar, and we subtract a bunch of hammers. Subtract pop elsewhere and we remove some of that GNP he's using for speed. Won't buy us all we need, but even just a couple turns will be very useful.

We could help by cash rushing an AV temple and some missionaries. Or by razing some elven cities, if we can afford the distraction.

I don't think it would help. Kwythellar is size 35, but all its hammers come from 18 tiles. The only production he'd lose from Blight is from the Pillar of Chains. If Blight went off next turn, it'd cost him maybe 50 base hammers in the timeframe we're talking about. His GNP won't matter once he has Arcane Lore, which will happen over the next three or four turns. Even Blighted, I think he still finishes on turn 116.

I think we should instead encourage Jalapeno to break off his NAP earlier than ours and start pillaging Kuriotate mines.

[Mardoc]

Hmm, that's a fair possibility, Raider vamp/spectre combos can reach really far.

Possibly a good time to review: what exactly were the terms of our NAP? What can we do to assist besides giving Jalapeno a safe border?

[HidingKneel]

Possibly a good time to review: what exactly were the terms of our NAP? What can we do to assist besides giving Jalapeno a safe border?

Here's the original proposal:

Hi Flintheart,



My scouts got vision on a couple of Calabim cities this turn, and we must conclude that they can't hold everywhere, they are woefully defended. This is an opportunity the Kuriotates would dearly love to take. We need some security from our neighbours though, would you agree to a nap to allow us to take the fight to the vampires? I'm not sure what the best form would be, perhaps just a continuous non agression agreement with a 10t cooldown? This would include

-no war declarations

-no aggression with hidden nationality units

-no aid to third parties at war or intending war with the signatories of this agreement

I have set up some attacks for next turn, I'm sure the Calabim hawks can see my units, but I doubt they can stop them. I promise you at least 1 razed Calabim city if you sign.

I hope the Khazad Mining Corporation can see the advantage of hostile competition between its rivals.

TBS.

Seems pretty broad... one could argue that we're already violating it, by making plans with the Grigori and Calabim (who are "intending war" with the signatories of this agreement). I'm just going to read it as saying we can't attack until turn 115.
(Hmm... do you think it's fair to declare war on turn 114 without attacking? That'll let our Earth Elementals protect Grigori units, if Warriorknight sends a stack with ours.)

So, diplo. First, TBS has taken our declaration well:

Well, that is sad indeed but not entirely unexpected. I am quite looking forward to a last stand so I hope your Druids don't disappoint.

First strike on my T115 is correct I think and then you can attack from your T115 on.

Good luck,

TBS.

From the sound of that, I'd guess he doesn't expect to win by turn 115, but does think he can survive our attack long enough to win. This turn revealed that he's swapped his nodes around again (has all Elementalism nodes now) but did not finish the Tower of Necromancy. Not sure what's going on there, but it means we have at least three more turns before he starts the big tower, because I'm 99% sure that he doesn't have the ability to build two towers at once. He's also teched Divination, doesn't have Arcane Lore, and has stored a huge amount of gold. I'm guessing that Bowyers was for defense: he's going to fill his capital to the brim with good defensive units and try to weather an assault. I wonder if it would be worth bringing Trebuchets after all? (Probably not... they don't move fast enough.)

Jalapeno didn't need any convincing:

I just caught sight of that node this turn. It is indeed entropy, and the enchantment one I mentioned before is now chaos. In addition I have sight on 2 air and 1 meta.

I have initiated my NAP's cooldown. He's teched bowyers and has guild of the nine (and makes 1000+ GPT). And he just popped an engineer. This is going to be ugly and I'm definitely going to need your help.

Can we agree to a NAP, maybe with a 5T cooldown? I'd like to strip all defenses from our border.

Best,

Jalepeno

I sent this in reply:

Jalapeno,



You're quite right. We neglected to consider that Engineer in our previous estimate. It now looks like TBS could finish this thing on Turn 116, or possibly even Turn 115 if he swaps into Arete as you earlier feared.



On the bright side, he doesn't seem to have finished his Tower of Necromancy before converting his nodes to Elementalism. When does you Shadow Mana deal with him expire?

We'll help any way we can. NAP with five-turn cooldown: agreed.

Unfortunately we're not in a position to time our attack with yours, due to our earlier agreement.

Guild of the Nine, Bowyers, and the massive Kuriotate GNP ought to make Kwythellar a tough nut to crack. But we don't necessarily need to crack it instantly: I'd propose pillaging the land around the city with spectres, particularly any tiles that contribute to his production.

We'll be approaching the city from the west on turn 115, from Grigori land. If all goes according to plan, our druids ought to be able to soften them up quite a bit. And the Grigori will support our efforts as well. I don't expect them to have much of an army, but if our druids can inflict enough collateral damage, every little bit will help.

Question: if I move an unwounded unit next to the Kuriotate border on turn 113, fortify it there on turn 114, and it gets hit by Maelstrom (say) on turn 115, will it heal at the start of my turn?

Overview of what we're building:



Hmm... now that I look at that, I think I really need to start taking this more seriously. What we're going to need is tons and tons of chariots. We've got around 30 warriors now waiting to upgrade (some to axemen, some to chariots), but I'd really like to have a lot more than that if we're going to maximize our chances of pulling this off.

Then again: turn order is our friend here. After our turn 115, the Calabim and Grigori will both get to move before the Kuriotates. So if we manage to soften up the city well enough, there ought to be plenty of manpower to pick off the wounded units.

EOT demos:



Dwarven vaults: so-so.

[HidingKneel]

Oh, I almost forgot.

Yell0w finally fired his worldspell this turn. Now that he's down to three cities, and I got Jalapeno to agree to lay off of him .

Also, I broke off our trade deals with the Kuriotates. Ivory for Fine Clothes (giving us an extra unhappy face in Brutengrad, but that hardly matters) and Open Borders. Cancelling those deals dropped our GNP by about 10, and dropped the Kuriotate GNP by about 100. I had no idea we were benefitting them so much!

Since we had the spare Ivory, I offered it to Yell0w for Silks. I also offered him a separate exchange of Iron for Spirit Mana. We haven't given WK his Spirit Mana back, and we're about to push out a few more adepts... no harm in letting them start with Spirit I (we definitely want Courage on our stack attacking the Kuriotates).

[Mardoc]

Hmm. I can think of one possibility for leaving Towers only almost done . When you cash rush, you get the full turn's production in overflow. Overflow into the Tower of Mastery would speed it a great deal given his current productivity.

(Hmm... do you think it's fair to declare war on turn 114 without attacking? That'll let our Earth Elementals protect Grigori units, if Warriorknight sends a stack with ours.)

No, I don't think this is quite kosher . Unless TBS agrees to the modification, of course.

I wonder if it would be worth bringing Trebuchets after all? (Probably not... they don't move fast enough.)

Agreed. Druids should be all we need, really. They affect every unit in a stack. Assuming that minor matter of the game lasting until we can declare...

We'll be approaching the city from the west on turn 115, from Grigori land. If all goes according to plan, our druids ought to be able to soften them up quite a bit. And the Grigori will support our efforts as well. I don't expect them to have much of an army, but if our druids can inflict enough collateral damage, every little bit will help.

Has there been diplo with WK that you just haven't posted? Or have I overlooked it?

Question: if I move an unwounded unit next to the Kuriotate border on turn 113, fortify it there on turn 114, and it gets hit by Maelstrom (say) on turn 115, will it heal at the start of my turn?

Yes, unless of course he kills it. All that matters is that a unit doesn't move or attack. Or has March.

Then again: turn order is our friend here. After our turn 115, the Calabim and Grigori will both get to move before the Kuriotates. So if we manage to soften up the city well enough, there ought to be plenty of manpower to pick off the wounded units.

Probably. But military will be rather useful post-war, too...

Other thoughts on delay tactics:
Kill any workers. He might repair tiles, might want to chop, don't let him
Occupy tiles. Don't necessarily have to pillage to prevent a tile from being worked, after all
Cut roads/resources from elsewhere in his empire to deny happy
Somehow spread AV to Kwythellar. It's already got Order, revolts would be fun to see.
Blight, of course. You've convinced me it's not sufficient on its own, but maybe in combination with other things on this list
Deny nodes. Only applies if done quickly.