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NobleHelium · December 19th, 2013, 02:48

It's okay Gaspar, I've already reserved a seat for you in the car that I've never owned.

NobleHelium

Some more thoughts. I had thought that it would be tempting to pick Zulu and move the scout to the grass hill to the east, but it seems basically impossible that we'd find the two food resources necessary for us to consider the eastern PH better than the western one. If only the corn had been one tile east, but alas. Anyway, I think Zulu is out and we should just take an Agriculture/Wheel civ or China. I am tempted to try out Rome sometime with the new IMP, but this isn't the start for it.

I checked possible synergies between traits and civs and I'm not seeing any.

So, traits again. PRO gets us a 1t faster worker on Quick and 2t on Normal. I don't think that's worth it when the capital will probably have no hills. By the same token, it seems like heavy whipping will be likely, so CHA and/or AGR sound like good possibilities. IMP could also synergize with CHA to let us whip settlers more often (2-whips instead of 3, with happy cap to absorb the more frequent whips). Although AGR will also let us whip more often overall so it's kind of a wash...

ORG, EXP and IND are worth considering I think. They're unchanged or mostly unchanged and are solid traits. I don't really see a reason to pick SPI and as I said earlier, I don't want to pick FIN when we don't really have river at the capital. Basically I'm kind of assuming that Seven did a decent job of balancing (even if that assumption is not correct) and going with choices that naturally make sense given the start. By that token, I don't really see anything that makes me want to pick PHI or CRE. (I guess the only thing at the capital that can indicate CRE is potential synergy with a civ, which depends on techs that we probably aren't going to pick.) Okay I guess this contradicts with what I said about ORG, EXP and IND. More accurately I'm interested in proving that ORG is better than CRE and thus CRE should not have been nerfed, cheap granaries just make everything easier, and I like having cheaper wonders when doublers are nerfed.

So in summary, my current preference is to pick some combination of: AGR, CHA, IMP, ORG, EXP, IND. Maybe CHA of Zulu is tempting after all? lol

I do honestly like that Hunting scout bonus even if it can't affect our start.

Cyneheard · December 19th, 2013, 11:26

Well, that's two Cha leaders gone.

I'm debating between:

Agr/Cha is solid - big cities are never bad. But I don't think this is a pro-vertical growth map???

Agr/Imp would be a very REXy plan - two 7f tiles to feed a 4 --> 2 --> 4 whip cycle (+12 fpt at size 2!). And it's on Prince - I'm only so concerned about us spamming cities into economic oblivion.

However, while Imp/Cha will be slower to hit that 4 --> 2 --> 4 whip cycle, it can run that cycle indefinitely with the absurd amount of happy headroom we get; we could whip a settler or worker as fast as every 4-5 turns. Currently leaning here, but can easily be convinced otherwise.

NobleHelium

Well, I'm not really convinced that AGR/CHA doesn't have the same or at least similar power to IMP/CHA for horizontal spread. More food is more whips too, it doesn't mean that we have to grow vertical. It does mean that when we choose to stop whipping we can grow vertical sooner, whereas IMP gets cheap markets instead.

Prince/Toroidal is a just-acceptable balance for maintenance. It's not low maintenance. Toroidal makes a huge difference.

NobleHelium

Okay Serdoa and I had a really long chat and it was quite meandering. Details in the spoiler, summary afterwards.

1) Initially I started pushing CHA because I talked about how the capital location would have lots of food and no hills.
2) Serdoa was unimpressed with the capital and said that we'd probably want to move it later, I withhold judgment on that.
3) We considered SIP but decided it wasn't really any better than the PH.
4) Then we talked about picking Zulu (which Seven just picked lol

) and its synergy with CHA. It seemed like a good idea to go with CHA if we get Zulu.
5) But then Serdoa realized that we won't be able to get BW for a long time if we go with Zulu because there's a huge gap between AH which is a necessary first tech and getting BW, and the worker would be terribly bored. So it makes sense to tech Wheel after AH, but then we'd still have too much of a gap before getting BW, and thus we'd want Pottery after Wheel.
6) If we're getting Pottery after Wheel, that delays BW a very fucking long time so we don't think it makes sense to pick CHA in that case.
7) Since CHA is out, ORG seemed like a strong trait to pick, and we want to pick AGR primarily because we can't figure out how strong it is and want to find out. And the start is not bad for it.
8) We'll want an Agriculture/Wheel civ to pair with Hammurabi, or maybe China. We didn't really discuss China but now that I think about it, China may be a viable choice. Either way, we'll decide that after yuris picks.

Cyneheard · December 19th, 2013, 20:57

Well, Egypt's out. Can't really disagree with Yuri's choice - if he has a nice hammer source or two, then he's got a very strong pick.

So:
Sumeria
France
China

I think this game is going to be decided relatively quickly, so Sumeria >> France for sure. But I think China wins - that lets us go AH --> BW as fast as possible, and waste as few worker turns as possible doing so.

NobleHelium

Hmmm...not sure why we thought that we'd have to farm the corn before pasturing the pig. AH takes 12t and the worker also takes 12t.

Not seeing anything for the worker to do after the farm if we take China though, BW isn't in for another 6t...

NobleHelium

As you can see, we've gone with Hammurabi of Sumeria. We really like Sumeria as the best Agriculture/Wheel civ. lol

Scout moves NE, settler SW for the first turn? I don't see a good reason to move the scout SW onto the PH before the settler, I don't think anything will make us decide to SIP over moving to the PH.

NobleHelium

Sandbox

Serdoa · December 20th, 2013, 01:42

(December 19th, 2013, 23:36)NobleHelium Wrote: Hmmm...not sure why we thought that we'd have to farm the corn before pasturing the pig. AH takes 12t and the worker also takes 12t.

Not seeing anything for the worker to do after the farm if we take China though, BW isn't in for another 6t...

I didn't think that we have to farm the corn first but for the issues I had with our pick-choices it made imo no difference if we pastured -> farmed or farmed -> pastured. Both left the worker without anything to do. AH -> BW via China would as you stated already leave the worker unused as well.

Pretty much the gist of it is: If have need AH and have no hills you either delay BW for a long time or have your worker not do anything that helps the economy along.

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