[SPOILERS] NHs rise to number 4

[Serdoa]

I'm at work right now without my tables. Let me get home and think a little bit about Mining or Pottery before you play the next turn please.

Also your techpath in the next to last post before this does not mention Mining at all. Was it researched before or after Pottery?

[NobleHelium]

Mining is directly before BW in all cases. I tend to omit mandatory prerequisites.

Doppelganger could be settled 1S and we can skip Myst and Fishing of course if we'd like. The thing I really don't like though is the lack of happy, so going for religion after Myst can definitely be a consideration.

[Serdoa]

Well, we need Fishing and Myst in any case so I'm not sure if settling it 1S would really make a difference.

Anyhow, I am certain by now that going Pottery first is the right move. I checked from work and we can at best save 6, probably only 5 turns on BW if we go directly into Mining -> BW simply because we lose so much commerce by not having cottages (or any commerce-tile really) to work. I would suggest a slightly different micro and worker-plan though (at least I think it is different). I have to work on it a little bit more to refine it up to T50, but for the next few turns it would look something like this

EOT13: Worker 5/60 - Food 0/22 - Worker pastures Pig - Tech Pottery
EOT14: Worker 10/60
EOT15: Warrior 2/15 - Food 3/22
EOT16: Warrior 4/15 - Food 10/22 - Pasture finished
EOT17: Warrior 6/15 - Food 17/22 - Worker farms Corn
EOT18: Warrior 8/15 - Food 24/22
EOT19: Worker 20/60 - Food 2/24
EOT20: Worker 30/60
EOT21: Worker 43/60 - Food 2/24 - Farm finished
EOT22: Worker 56/60 - Food 2/24 - Road Corn for 1t - Pottery finishes
EOT23: Worker 69/60 - Food 2/24 - Cottage Plains 1NE of Capital - Mining started
EOT24: Warrior 19/15 - Food 13/24 - Second Worker starts Cottage 1NE of Corn
EOT25: Warrior 6/15 - Food 24/24
EOT26: Warrior 9/15 - Food 10/26 - Cottage finished (city works now pig, corn, plains cottage
EOT27: Warrior 12/15 - Food 20/26 - Move into forest SE of Cap, Worker 2 finishes Cottage
EOT28: Warrior 15/15 - Food 30/26 - Worker 1 roads, Worker 2 finishes road on Corn - Mining finishes

That yields 2 Worker, 2 Warriors with a capital at size 4 working 2 cottages. Further on is producing a settler while finishing BW. Workers do road to the second city (south city) and prepare accordingly. Though that's the part that might be refined already.

[Serdoa]

If you haven't yet, wait before you play. I found another microplan with Mining first which does come out ahead (to the detriment of our forests). It yields 2 Warriors, 2 Settlers, 5 Workers till T44. Needs 3 forests. Less tech. But you'll easily get another city till T51 out of that.

On T50 I get: 3 cities sizes 3,3,2 with another settler on the way already. 6-7 workers. -7 forests. And no cottages. But Pottery in since T44, so a few could be built, especially as 2 workers are not planned starting T45, 2 are just chopping (which I'm pretty sure we could instead grow and whip with better micro, I'm just lazy right now) and 1 could be free starting T46 if we don't chop another worker but instead take 2 turns more to finish it (probably the better choice).

[NobleHelium]

Uhm, well the second plan sounds terrible. It is a total Kuro plan chopping everything before Math. That's probably not going to get us anywhere except four cities producing fewer than ten beakers total breakeven. Spreadsheets don't show things like that...

The first plan looks like it has an error in it:

EOT22: Worker 56/60 - Food 2/24 - Road Corn for 1t - Pottery finishes
EOT23: Worker 69/60 - Food 2/24 - Cottage Plains 1NE of Capital - Mining started
EOT24: Warrior 19/15 - Food 13/24 - Second Worker starts Cottage 1NE of Corn
EOT25: Warrior 6/15 - Food 24/24
EOT26: Warrior 9/15 - Food 10/26 - Cottage finished (city works now pig, corn, plains cottage
EOT27: Warrior 12/15 - Food 20/26 - Move into forest SE of Cap, Worker 2 finishes Cottage
EOT28: Warrior 15/15 - Food 30/26 - Worker 1 roads, Worker 2 finishes road on Corn - Mining finishes

How does the second worker cottage 1NE of the corn when the road on the corn is not finished? It's really way too easy to make mistakes from a spreadsheet IMO.

Anyway, the two worker idea is interesting, I'll try it out.

[NobleHelium]

My current impression is that two workers is a good idea, but I'm not sold on the way of getting to the two workers - straight growing to 3 and then starting the second worker and then settler may be better. But getting two workers and cottaging the plains which I hadn't previously considered can definitely go a long way to solving our tech shortage problem. Need to sim some more along these lines.

[Gaspar]

I'd say it much less unpleasantly than Noble, but generally speaking, mackoti convinced me you use forests for wonders/important buildings and not settlers/workers. Obviously you do a chop here or there when necessary, but generally speaking.

[NobleHelium]

But it's much more succinct to describe something as a Kuro plan.

[Serdoa]

Well, I think that's a good general rule (and I totally agree that my general plan was not well thought out, but hey cut me some slack I was at work when doing it) but I also think the hard part is realizing when chopping is the right choice, even for a worker or settler.

Anyhow, in the end, the real discussion was less about how much chopping but if there is a way to make BW before Pottery viable. And if we want to get any kind of tech it isn't. But that's what my first plan is for, so I'm kinda still happy with myself and feel proud for being such a good player

(And also I would totally have won PBEM47 or whatever it was that Seven thinks he or mackoti had the better position in )

[NobleHelium]

I do believe the general consensus was that you were winning 47 when it ended.