[Spoilers] MJW, the King of Italy BLACK BOOTS (Merovech lurks)

[MJW (ya that one)]

Amusing e-mail from Germany after I explained to him why TT stabbed him:

Ah. That clarifies things. Feel free to leak the following to anyone you wish:

My army in Bur is going to be pulling back, to defend Mun or assist in any attacks on Austria it can manage.

I have a detailed plan with scooter about how I can support him into Sev and ION the coming year.

My amy in Bur is going to try to take one of Cyneheard's centres in Spring, hoping he moves out of one of them assuming he'll be able to get it back in Autumn if necessary.

dtay is assuming that he will be facing an RF coalition against him in the immediate future, is asking me to cede centres to him so he can hold it off.

My army in Bur is going to be heading to Gas, to try to take Spa to continue its existence past the year's end.


I've hatched a plan with Rowain in which we can realistically divide Russia between ourselves within 3 years, with no outside assistance.



If you've any other ideas you want to spread around to people, come to me first and I'll happily give you a quote so you won't even have to lie to them!

[MJW (ya that one)]

Well, here is some truthful correspondence. I spent around an hour trying to find the best moves...

Subject Line: MJW Update

Hi TT,

Well Brick has finally updated the thread. So you have two days. Austria destroyed the fleet in Greece for some reason. So forgot everything I said as my plans assumed that fleet would be there.

So my main plan is for you to support UKR-->GAL to make that extra army useless. It's attack 3 SCs but if you do that it would be attacking zero. Also taking BUL with your fleet isn't a good idea as it would force you to waste a unit defending RUM. If I actually take BUL this year you can have VIE. I'm quite sure that scooter will order F CON SUPPORTS A BUL

So my plan would be:

Me:

F ION-->GRE
A ALB SUPPORTS F ION --> GRE
F APU-->ION (gets my fleets into the action)
A VEN-->TYR (to cut off the escape)
A TRI-->VEN
A SER-->BUL

You:

F DEN needs to work with England to do anything. If you cannot for some reason then I would suggest F DEN-->KIE
F RUM SUPPORTS A SER-->BUL
F SEV-->BLA
A MOS-->SEV
A UKR SUPPORTS A WAR-->GAL
A WAR-->GAL (This way Austria and Germany cannot use three units to attack Warsaw)
A BUD SUPPORTS A TRI-->VIE

Farewell,
MJW

[MJW (ya that one)]

Some more correspondence. This is all of it this turn--major burnout from everyone. I'll just tell the lurkers that that misorder was a real misorder.

Subject line: MJW checking in

That's why I stabbed Rowain--because TT joined me. Are you still attacking Germany? Remember my ally TT attacked him. If you are attacking Germany I can move to TYR to help you do damage but moving to TYR without your help doesn't do anything... So I have to know before.

MJW,

Trying to catch up after our hiatus. Are you still interested in doing Ven-Tyr? I'd be moving into Bur in the spring (and no one can stop me from doing that), so there's definitely value in having Tyr occupied. We've got 2 days, so no immediate rush, but I think it's good to figure out where everyone stands.

Cyneheard

Yes I'm still going there. But I won't support it so a bounce with Austria is very possible (An Austria army at TYR would be very annoying to me and Rowain has nothing to lose). So don't depend on it.

I think if he believes you aren't working with TT at this point (or at least refusing to help him) he'll pop the Bud army instead.

Sounds good.

Well I misordered so I'm stuck taking VIE this turn. But I will order A VEN-->TYR again this season which is a hostile act.

[MJW (ya that one)]

twinkletoes89 correspondence (I'm older than him! )

Subject Line: MJW update

Hi TT,

Well Brick has finally updated the thread. So you have two days. Austria destroyed the fleet in Greece for some reason. So forgot everything I said as my plans assumed that fleet would be there.

So my main plan is for you to support UKR-->GAL to make that extra army useless. It's attack 3 SCs but if you do that it would be attacking zero. Also taking BUL with your fleet isn't a good idea as it would force you to waste a unit defending RUM. If I actually take BUL this year you can have VIE. I'm quite sure that scooter will order F CON SUPPORTS A BUL

So my plan would be:

Me:

F ION-->GRE
A ALB SUPPORTS F ION --> GRE
F APU-->ION (gets my fleets into the action)
A VEN-->TYR (to cut off the escape)
A TRI-->VEN
A SER-->BUL

You:

F DEN needs to work with England to do anything. If you cannot for some reason then I would suggest F DEN-->KIE
F RUM SUPPORTS A SER-->BUL
F SEV-->BLA
A MOS-->SEV
A UKR SUPPORTS A WAR-->GAL
A WAR-->GAL (This way Austria and Germany cannot use three units to attack Warsaw)
A BUD SUPPORTS A TRI-->VIE

Farewell,
MJW

MJW,

On the whole the plan looks pretty solid. Have only just got the internet working again at home so will look at the map to see if there is anything better we can do out there, but it seems like that would be hard to do. Unless I find something, consider me 100% on board.

TT

Okay then. I've sent my orders. I'll just point out that Rowain and TT don't like you at all so if they say anything to you they are probably lying and trying to trick you then way I just got tricked...

I'm guessing you mean scooter... Unless that email was meant for him

I think I may need to keep my Moscow army in place, just so I can cover St P if Eng moves his army to Finland.

Will assess the likelihood in next few hours but will let you know what I decide

TT

Yes it did.

You should probably order A MOS-->SEV even if you think England would stab as scooter not ordering A ARM-->SEV and you also getting the black sea is extremely unlikely. And that's the only way your army can leave Moscow this turn.

I would guess that Dtay is focusing on getting as many Germany SCs as possible so I would guess a stab won't happen but oh well.

I won't have access to the internet for the rest of this day so my orders stand. Comcast just sucks... )-:

Okay, even though you might not see this message before the deadline, I have changed my orders significantly to be a bit more defensive whilst still likely ensuring the destruction of Rowain & hopefully the capture of the Black Sea.

This is what I submitted:

F DEN -> KIE
F RUM -> BLA
F SEV -> RUM
A UKR -> SEV
A MOS HOLDS
A WAR -> GAL
A BUD S A WAR

I clear out GAL most likely, should take the Black Sea unless scooter really wants to spite me whilst also defending SEV & keeping a contingency for StP if needed.

I want to be different with SEV because I reckon Scooter would prefer my Mos army in Sev as he knows he is going to die, but he could easily have spoken to England and tempted him to stab me at StP if my MOS army is caught out of position.

This shouldn't really harm you at all, just means that VIE & BUL are delayed til the fall, but that's not that bad right now as we would struggle to make more gains anyway.

TT

Okay then. I've changed A SER --> BUL to A SER SUPPORTS F SER TO RUM. I won't have any internet access until the turn flips so my orders stand.

Well aside from that misorder (see the game thread) even thing else went well. I'll just point out that you can refuse to retreat the fleet. You should speak to Dtay before you do anything though...

[MJW (ya that one)]

On general the gamemaster should never change a order from a player. There have been occurrences where "misspelled" Orders have been done on purpose. And misspelling has been claimed to cover a stab. (in the history of Diplo-games not necessarily here).
In short neither Mardoc nor TT have a chance to know if we have an agreement to leave VIE free or not.

I just cannot see how my move orders can make sense. So any arguments about trying to gain unfair advantage make no sense. Leaving VIE open is a very pathetic idea and show's Rowain struggling to come up for an example. And mardoc can KNOW if there was an agreement because he can see my correspondence. But Rowain is the player who would be directly hurt by fixing my orders so only his vote matters.

I'm not being harsh on Rowain. If the shoe was on the other foot I would probably do the same thing but use different arguments like 'slippery slope'. I just think his argument sucks.

[Mardoc]

I just cannot see how my move orders can make sense.

Maybe someone made you a promise and asked you to move there to confirm you heard and agreed. Maybe you needed to give Tri to TT in exchange for a province elsewhere and to Ven was the only guaranteed way to do that. Maybe you made a deal with Rowain to let him live if he attacks Germany (or if he attacks only TT, for that matter). Maybe you're going after France next and the army had to start moving right away. Maybe you just want the western countries to underestimate you so they focus on TT instead of on you. That's five possibilities off the top of my head, and since you can't prove a negative, you can't prove none of them were real.

But my real reasoning is slippery-slope. I wouldn't much worry about this particular one, if it didn't open the doors for nastier stuff later on. Don't want someone waiting to see if there's a bounce before they said they 'misordered'. Like Fall 1901, if Dtay waited to see what France did before getting the 'correct' order in for his F Eng. Too many things in this game depend on what everyone else is doing, I've got to have a bright line rule and 'no changes after resolution' works for that.

Edit: Oh, one more thing. The idea of proving what you said to other people worries me too. If you send me everything and convince me it's true, and I make a gamestate change because of that, then people know you weren't lying. Like WW, it's one thing to suspect someone is village and totally different for the GM to prove that they're village.

[MJW (ya that one)]

I just cannot see how my move orders can make sense.

Maybe someone made you a promise and asked you to move there to confirm you heard and agreed. Maybe you needed to give Tri to TT in exchange for a province elsewhere and to Ven was the only guaranteed way to do that. Maybe you made a deal with Rowain to let him live if he attacks Germany (or if he attacks only TT, for that matter). Maybe you're going after France next and the army had to start moving right away. Maybe you just want the western countries to underestimate you so they focus on TT instead of on you. That's five possibilities off the top of my head, and since you can't prove a negative, you can't prove none of them were real.

But my real reasoning is slippery-slope. I wouldn't much worry about this particular one, if it didn't open the doors for nastier stuff later on. Don't want someone waiting to see if there's a bounce before they said they 'misordered'. Like Fall 1901, if Dtay waited to see what France did before getting the 'correct' order in for his F Eng. Too many things in this game depend on what everyone else is doing, I've got to have a bright line rule and 'no changes after resolution' works for that.

Edit: Oh, one more thing. The idea of proving what you said to other people worries me too. If you send me everything and convince me it's true, and I make a gamestate change because of that, then people know you weren't lying. Like WW, it's one thing to suspect someone is village and totally different for the GM to prove that they're village.

Okay then--I'm knew the real reason was the slippery slope. I could get around the GM proving I wasn't lying by giving Rowain permission to check my e-mail instead. You can tell anything to other player. But that's a moot point. I don't think it's possible to make him change his mind and because he's the one that would be screwed over--even if the five other players agreed with me that wouldn't be enough.

So I guess the only thing you would accept would be spelling errors that don't cause ambiguity and other things like that. And as I said before NMR's are different category because they are not caused by errors. You can preemptively make a ruling on that though if you feel like it.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Well I'm not talking to scooter because I cannot see a way we can work together. So doing that would be a waste of time. I would also assume that he's lying to screw me over to take revenge as it's very hard to him to win or draw/survive.

Here's other big e-mail to tt. Spent around 45 minutes thinking about what to do. TT and I need to focus on scooter, mattimeo and rowain this turn. The turn after this one they would be weakened enough that we can think about turning on eachother.

Subject line: Other turn with MJW

Hi TT,

I've thought about what to do a lot. If scooter hasn't talked to you then I'm guessing that he's given up on this game. If he has given up on this game he's focusing on screwing me as much as possible. Trying to stop me from getting Greece and blocking me and giving you the black sea. So my suggestions are based on that assumption. If you are feeling adventurous you might what to contact scooter and suggest you coordinate with him to give you cities. If you do that please tell me so we can work out a plan. This probably won't work if your internet still sucks as it would require finesse which you cannot have with a poor internet. So my suggested orders are:

Me:

A TYR-->VIE
A VEN-->TYR (I told cyneheard I'll move there and I cannot think of anything useful the army could do)
F GRE-->AEG
F ION SUPPORTS F GRE-->AEG (I'm assuming scooter will attack GRE with BUL and then take ION to screw me over as much as possible. This is actually a good thing as it allows my fleets an excuse to go near France to attack it. You can help my AEG fleet take SMY on the last turn of next year)
A ALB-->GRE
A SER SUPPORTS A ALB-->GRE

You:

A BUD SUPPORTS A TYR-->VIE
A GAL-->WAR (gal's support could be cut so you should move in with it)
A MOS SUPPORTS A GAL-->WAR (you made a mistake last turn were you made your support implicit by omitting the target of the moving army. See the log last turn.)
F HEL??? (This cannot do anything useful without England support. I suggest you refuse to submit orders until you get an idea about what England is doing. Not being able to use a fleet at all is a big disadvantage and justifies binding the rules)
A SEV-->ARM (This move is likely to succeed as scooter is probably focusing on screwing me over. That A ARM-->ANK is hard to explain otherwise.)
F RUM-->BUL (I'll just remind you that your fleet cannot support AEG/GRE next turn because BUL has two coasts)
F BLA SUPPORTS F RUM-->BUL (remember to make your orders explicit. This move will always work because I will cut /F GRE's possible support by attacking it)

Basically were tied to defending ourselves and killing scooter and rowain this turn. The only free units are my A VEN and your F HEL which are doing other things this turn.

Goodbye,
MJW

[MJW (ya that one)]

Okay lurkers I have a question:

What happens if the following orders happen?

Green:
A ALB-->GRE
F GRE-->AEG
F ION SUPPORTS F GRE-->AEG

Yellow:
A BUL-->GRE
F AEG SUPPORTS A BUL-->GRE

Does yellow get GRE or does it bounce?

[sunrise089]

MJW, thanks for still updating your thread in what is otherwise perhaps the worst reported game I've seen on this site.