Hearthstone

[Bacchus]

Yeah, I'd say if the problem lies anywhere, it lies with Leeroy in a game which has no instants/interrupts to control his damage-dealing. Secrets just don't do it and only three classes have them anyway. What I'd rather see than a Leeroy nerf though, is a way to spam weak taunts in a fashion similar to the shaman/paladin power. This would make the combo decks work a bit harder and smarter, without cutting the strength of their punch. A neutral minion which has a shadowform-like battlecry would be an interesting thing to see to boot.

[Kuro]

To me, if there's only one very specific deck archetype where a neutral card (Auctioneer) is a balance problem, the problem isn't with that neutral card. If Miracle Rogue dominance is a problem, then I'd much rather see a tweak to it directly than to a card that is interesting (but perfectly balanced) in many other decks. E.g. it could be a tweak (or even rework) to Preparation or even Shadowstep. Or maybe just tweaking Leeroy would do it and it would also shuffle the rest of the metagame around in interesting ways.

The problem is Gadgetzan really isn't balanced. It is just that due to the small pool of cards there isn't much to abuse it yet. But cards that allow you to so easily draw a bunch of cards without a cap are pretty much always problematic in card games. Gadgetzan's existance will also warp the creation of all further low mana cost cards if left unchecked, since it won't rotate out. Gadgetzan should have a cap of around 2 cards. It's not even that Miracle Rogue is a problem, as much as Gadgetzan's design means it will inevitably be a problem. The initial premise here is also odd (Just because it's a neutral card doesn't change that it is a balance problem, even if only one class abuses it right now to the full extent...that's basically only because of the small card pool though and the fact that other Miracle decks are gaining steam with Gadegzan helps show why this will be a problem as more cards are added).

[Gaspar]

I think Gadgetzan should really just only draw cards for spells that cost at least 1 mana. But I don't know that Miracle itself is purely broken, just super annoying. I watched NESL King of the Hill last night and all 3 games Miracle didn't draw Gadgetzan and lost pretty feebly in doing so. But I agree with Kuro - pretty much any card which allows you to fairly easily draw more than 2 cards is going to be unbalanced. Its one thing to have a card like Sprint that costs 7 mana to do it. Or Divine Favor, which requires a very specific situation to do be worth a lot and can be played around. Gadgetzan routinely draws 4+ cards in those rogue decks and that's just an I win button.

I go back and forth on Leeroy. I certainly made sure he was the first legendary I crafted and he is basically a neutral fireball. Its just a lot harder to buff a fireball with spell damage than a minion for one turn burst. I also think generically the fact that basically the only decks that don't play him are midrange decks - he's in every aggro deck and every control deck. Legendarys should be a bit more situational I think. But big combos are fun - we all spent a dozen posts trying to think of ways the different classes could do X damage in one turn. So as much as its not fun to eat 20 damage out of nowhere, I think generally speaking its easier to play around those combos than it is to play around big card draw engine.

For unleash, the problem has always been the interaction with starving buzzard on the turn its played, not the actual hounds, even if they get buffed. There's still a ton of hunter on the low end and anytime I run into one, it basically rolls down to whether they pull off a 3+ card UTH/Buzzard combo or not as to who wins. Hunters Mark itself is annoying as free removal, but it does require you to have board presence or a charge minion available to get removal on the same turn, so the removal itself doesn't really cost 0 mana, so that's a little bit more reasonable.

I mean if we're talking annoying, there's no doubt Priest are the biggest bastard decks where they're constantly stealing your minions and your cards. They're clearly not broken though, as they're one of the least played classes at high ranks.

Overall, I think the metagame is pretty healthy at the moment. There are a ton of different classes being played at a fairly high level, even if Miracle Rogue and Handlock are probably the two strongest decks.

[Kuro]

I think Gadgetzan should really just only draw cards for spells that cost at least 1 mana. But I don't know that Miracle itself is purely broken, just super annoying. I watched NESL King of the Hill last night and all 3 games Miracle didn't draw Gadgetzan and lost pretty feebly in doing so. But I agree with Kuro - pretty much any card which allows you to fairly easily draw more than 2 cards is going to be unbalanced. Its one thing to have a card like Sprint that costs 7 mana to do it. Or Divine Favor, which requires a very specific situation to do be worth a lot and can be played around. Gadgetzan routinely draws 4+ cards in those rogue decks and that's just an I win button.

I go back and forth on Leeroy. I certainly made sure he was the first legendary I crafted and he is basically a neutral fireball. Its just a lot harder to buff a fireball with spell damage than a minion for one turn burst. I also think generically the fact that basically the only decks that don't play him are midrange decks - he's in every aggro deck and every control deck. Legendarys should be a bit more situational I think. But big combos are fun - we all spent a dozen posts trying to think of ways the different classes could do X damage in one turn. So as much as its not fun to eat 20 damage out of nowhere, I think generally speaking its easier to play around those combos than it is to play around big card draw engine.

For unleash, the problem has always been the interaction with starving buzzard on the turn its played, not the actual hounds, even if they get buffed. There's still a ton of hunter on the low end and anytime I run into one, it basically rolls down to whether they pull off a 3+ card UTH/Buzzard combo or not as to who wins. Hunters Mark itself is annoying as free removal, but it does require you to have board presence or a charge minion available to get removal on the same turn, so the removal itself doesn't really cost 0 mana, so that's a little bit more reasonable.

I mean if we're talking annoying, there's no doubt Priest are the biggest bastard decks where they're constantly stealing your minions and your cards. They're clearly not broken though, as they're one of the least played classes at high ranks.

Overall, I think the metagame is pretty healthy at the moment. There are a ton of different classes being played at a fairly high level, even if Miracle Rogue and Handlock are probably the two strongest decks.

Is Miracle Rogue that high? I thought Zoolock was second. Leeroy is hard to say but I think the big thing is that the stuff that abuses him can basically work just as well with Arcane Golem and not loose much: Charge is just quite powerful in Hearthstone. I think this will be easier as more cards are introduced to actually play around Charge. Gadgetzan just needs a cap to it.

I've never been one to find Priest annoying to play against and I am amused people get mad when Thoughtsteal gets played. After all my cards are much better in my Deck than theirs and I do like seeing mine become golden off Golden Thoughtsteal. Mind Control can be slightly annoying but at 10 mana I just kind of chuckle because it's a bad card. I just wish the Shadowpriest I've been working on would actually work...Priest has so many situational cards you get a bad case of deadhand.

[Gaspar]

Is Miracle Rogue that high? I thought Zoolock was second. Leeroy is hard to say but I think the big thing is that the stuff that abuses him can basically work just as well with Arcane Golem and not loose much: Charge is just quite powerful in Hearthstone. I think this will be easier as more cards are introduced to actually play around Charge. Gadgetzan just needs a cap to it.

I've never been one to find Priest annoying to play against and I am amused people get mad when Thoughtsteal gets played. After all my cards are much better in my Deck than theirs and I do like seeing mine become golden off Golden Thoughtsteal. Mind Control can be slightly annoying but at 10 mana I just kind of chuckle because it's a bad card. I just wish the Shadowpriest I've been working on would actually work...Priest has so many situational cards you get a bad case of deadhand.

If you watch the guys who are winning tournaments/laddering at top 50 legendary its pretty much Miracle Rogue until they just get bored with it, Handlock because its the closest thing to a counter to Miracle and then midrange shamans and druids. That's still a way healthier metagame than Midrange Hunter, Hunter face and more hunter like it was pre-UTH nerf.

Re: Priest its really just that the games are so effing boring. I played three in a row with my midrange druid last night and it was just long, drawn out matches. Thoughtsteal doesn't bother me but I hate Shadow Madness and MC - not because there's anything wrong with them, its just frustrating because they're tough to run down and then they're taking your threats from you. Somehow much less annoying getting them hexed or Hunter's Marked because you don't have to watch your 3/3 kill your 6/3 or figure out a way to kill your own Ancient of Lore.

Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all, in fact Priest is still pretty clearly underpowered, I just personally find playing against it the most frustrating. I'm happy to play against aggro decks because the games over quickly one way or another and when you're laddering to try and move up, short games are what you want. I play a very mediocre Paladin face deck for that reason sometimes but I feel like midrange decks are the ones that force you to improve your reading of the game the most so that's what I'm playing right now, since my focus is more on getting better than laddering.

[Kuro]

Is Miracle Rogue that high? I thought Zoolock was second. Leeroy is hard to say but I think the big thing is that the stuff that abuses him can basically work just as well with Arcane Golem and not loose much: Charge is just quite powerful in Hearthstone. I think this will be easier as more cards are introduced to actually play around Charge. Gadgetzan just needs a cap to it.

I've never been one to find Priest annoying to play against and I am amused people get mad when Thoughtsteal gets played. After all my cards are much better in my Deck than theirs and I do like seeing mine become golden off Golden Thoughtsteal. Mind Control can be slightly annoying but at 10 mana I just kind of chuckle because it's a bad card. I just wish the Shadowpriest I've been working on would actually work...Priest has so many situational cards you get a bad case of deadhand.

If you watch the guys who are winning tournaments/laddering at top 50 legendary its pretty much Miracle Rogue until they just get bored with it, Handlock because its the closest thing to a counter to Miracle and then midrange shamans and druids. That's still a way healthier metagame than Midrange Hunter, Hunter face and more hunter like it was pre-UTH nerf.

To be honest I am a bit leery of Hearthstone tournament results: It feels like a lot of time the players playing in them default to control even when when aggro is good. This could just be the result of me reading too much of people complaining about aggro existing though.

[Sir Bruce]

Is Miracle Rogue that high? I thought Zoolock was second. Leeroy is hard to say but I think the big thing is that the stuff that abuses him can basically work just as well with Arcane Golem and not loose much: Charge is just quite powerful in Hearthstone. I think this will be easier as more cards are introduced to actually play around Charge. Gadgetzan just needs a cap to it.

I've never been one to find Priest annoying to play against and I am amused people get mad when Thoughtsteal gets played. After all my cards are much better in my Deck than theirs and I do like seeing mine become golden off Golden Thoughtsteal. Mind Control can be slightly annoying but at 10 mana I just kind of chuckle because it's a bad card. I just wish the Shadowpriest I've been working on would actually work...Priest has so many situational cards you get a bad case of deadhand.

If you watch the guys who are winning tournaments/laddering at top 50 legendary its pretty much Miracle Rogue until they just get bored with it, Handlock because its the closest thing to a counter to Miracle and then midrange shamans and druids. That's still a way healthier metagame than Midrange Hunter, Hunter face and more hunter like it was pre-UTH nerf.

To be honest I am a bit leery of Hearthstone tournament results: It feels like a lot of time the players playing in them default to control even when when aggro is good. This could just be the result of me reading too much of people complaining about aggro existing though.

The most common deck of the highest ranked legends last season was Miracle Rogue by a decent amount (http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearth...hey-played). Which is consistent with it dominating tournament play as well.

[Gaspar]

To be honest I am a bit leery of Hearthstone tournament results: It feels like a lot of time the players playing in them default to control even when when aggro is good. This could just be the result of me reading too much of people complaining about aggro existing though.

People complain about aggro because its cheap - literally, in the sense that its the deck that players with shallow card pools can afford to play - therefore its by far the most seen at the levels of the players you're hearing complain are playing at.

Can an aggro deck beat Miracle Rogue or the other decks played in tournaments or at the top of the ladder? Of course. But its going to be far less consistent than the top-ranked decks. Specifically, aggro emphasizes the importance of card draw - namely the aggro player not drawing dead and the control player not drawing into the removal/taunts that stabilizes and allows their stronger cards to take over. That's actually great on ladder, because it ends games quickly and especially at lower-middle levels of ladder where players are either not good enough to make the stabilizing plays or their decks aren't well-constructed enough to run them but when the calibre of player starts to even out you want decks that allow you to have more control over the situation (at least as much as is possible in a game as RNG heavy as Hearthstone.)

This of course is why Zoo is the best climbing deck - it combines the fast games of pure face decks with a lot more control and hugely reduced possibility of drawing dead thanks to the lock hero power.

As an aside, its amazing how often newer/bad players ruin those decks with one or two substitutions that cause them to draw dead. I just played a ranked game against a zoo lock with my druid and he got a super fast start that I was having a hard time dealing with. I finally was able to get a couple of 4-drops out on successive turns and stem the tide a bit. He had been sitting on 2 cards for a long time, not using all his mana. Anyway, he eventually draws into Doomguard to kill my Yeti when I was representing lethal on the board and what two cards come flying out of his hand - 2 Demonfires.

(Then next game I got wrecked by essentially the basic mage deck + Ragnaros, so there's Hearthstone for you.)

[Kuro]

To be honest I am a bit leery of Hearthstone tournament results: It feels like a lot of time the players playing in them default to control even when when aggro is good. This could just be the result of me reading too much of people complaining about aggro existing though.

Can an aggro deck beat Miracle Rogue or the other decks played in tournaments or at the top of the ladder? Of course. But its going to be far less consistent than the top-ranked decks. Specifically, aggro emphasizes the importance of card draw - namely the aggro player not drawing dead and the control player not drawing into the removal/taunts that stabilizes and allows their stronger cards to take over. That's actually great on ladder, because it ends games quickly and especially at lower-middle levels of ladder where players are either not good enough to make the stabilizing plays or their decks aren't well-constructed enough to run them but when the calibre of player starts to even out you want decks that allow you to have more control over the situation (at least as much as is possible in a game as RNG heavy as Hearthstone.)

To be honest, I disagree with this a lot: If anything, I would argue Zoolock (as the premiere aggro deck I will use it) is MORE consistant than most of the high level control decks. People have said they see less Control Warrior (from what I've read) at higher levels and one of those reasons is how risky their MU is vs. Zoolock. Zoolock has one of the better MUs against Miracle Rogue because they are one of the best at exhausting Miracle Rogue's supplies before Gadgetzan drops or killing them before the OTK. Ramp Druid has declined in popularity to Token Druid because of the fact that Ramp Druid is bad vs. Zoolock. And indeed, Zoolock is one of the more consistant Decks for getting good opening hands: Most of their cards combine well to start. In addition, like Handlock, liberal use of the Warlock hero power means they'll draw a lot and thus be a lot more consistant by seeing more cards. I can't say for certain how well this holds up at the highest level, but looking at Trump play some Legendary he runs into a lot more Zoolock-esque decks than other kinds. In my opinion the reason you see control Decks so much in tournaments and such is that it almost has a sub-metagame involved: People play largely control Decks in them and decks like Control Warrior shine vs. other Control Decks, becoming more consistant. However aggro usually beats control and is beaten by midrange, IIRC. In addition, pretty much every other card game of notoriety sees aggro decks worthwhile in their tournaments, and I see no real reason Hearthstone would be different. But yeah, I would argue Zoolock is more consistant than most control decks out there given low mana costs (Most of their cards will work the first few important turns: They're less likely to get a dead hand than most stuff aside from Handlock), the Warlock hero power and such. Handlock/Miracle Rogue might be stronger, I think Handlock might be the strongest deck out there ATM, but I would say Zoolock is more consistant winning-wise than a Deck like Control Warrior, from what I have seen.

[antisocialmunky]

I'm not so pissed off that Leeroy or that burst combo decks are good. The problem is that its always the same stupid combo. Have some variety.