Work boats and Starting techs

[Krill]

Starting techs:

All starting techs now cost base 50 except:
Mysticism, cost 60.

Other changes: work boat no longer require Fishing.
Working water tiles no longer requires Fishing.
Improving seafood does not require Fishing.

Fishing enables Lighthouse and Whaling boats

Sailing cost decreased to base 80 (from 100)

Starting techs: Seafood starts are still slower in researching critical techs if Fishing is a necessary tech; increasing the tech cost but making work boats not require Fishing increaes the tech deficit problem albeit does help with the hammer costs of hte unit, and the food output if not starting with Fishing.

Decreasing the cost of food techs but making them all researchable before a worker completes has 2 major effects: if the worker completes too soon due to traits/2 hammer capital tiles, then there is a minor nerf to the trait or starts that have the quicker worker AND the suboptimal start techs. If the food techs are so cheap that they are always researched before the worker completes, then there is no reason to ever pick them and you should choose the more expensive starting techs for the additional utility they provide.

The Pasture and cost changes to AH/Archery/Hunting were aimed at making sure players could always research the necessary food techs from T0, and I feel that the games played have shown this is good both for diversity of civs and map starts, but also that cheap Archery has made strategic resources...less of an instant loss. I think that following down this route seems like the right thing to do. Thus lowering the cost of Agri, Hunting and Wheel to the same as Mining seems to reconcile the accessibility of food techs with the utility of the none food techs. It also has the advantage of slightly helping with the “High tech cost” problem that occasionally occurs (although I don’t think it’s a problem in that sense).

The Fishing changes are frankly a bit of a kludge. So long as workboats are available from T0 regardless of starting techs, then to truly not be tech limited in the same manner that pasture or farm resources are then the ability to work water tiles should not require a tech, not whist the work boat is used up on a initial use. But if those two effects are removed from Fishing, then Fishing actually has no effects. Therefore this route requires Fishing as a tech be rebuilt or deleted.

Personally, I am not 100% sure this is the right move, and I would appreciate input from others on how to fix work boat problem; I am aware that some people do not believe that workboats have a problem. I disagree because there is a narrow range where improving a seafood tile will be about equivalent to improving a land food resource (for a given land food tile). However, because of the tech issue, traits, starting tiles and hammer output on T0, the finish dates for work boats vary massively from eot T3, for a 6F tile on T4 at the extreme end (eot T4 for improved 6F tile T5 is the general “best” time from plains hill and plainshill forest and EXP, start with Fishing) to T12 if there are only 1 hammer tiles to work. The pay back from the seafood tile is based on the then sped up worker and the ability to work an improved food tile afterwards, compared to worker first starts that need to improve a food tile.

This gives a quite wide number of outcomes where the best Fishing starts are really strong, stronger than worker first in a lot of instances, but in a lot of instances suck more (salt water clam/crab, lower hammer output, no Fishing).

What are peoples thoughts on these issues?

[SevenSpirits]

So the last time this topic came up I remember talking about two separate issues.

1) Strength of fishing-tech civs.
2) Strength of starts with fishing resources.

I feel that this change (making the normal fishing effects free, and turning fishing into a spinoff of sailing) is a big step back for fishing-tech civs. The ability to build lighthouses at the start of the game is all but useless, and the ability to build whaling boats is incredibly situational. Barring some mapmaker pandering to this change, whales only occur in ocean and there isn't much ocean in capital BFCs, so whale is probably the least likely resource to have at your capital. This makes fishing a completely useless tech at the beginning of most games. So from that standpoint, I do not like this change.

As for point 2, this change helps, I guess. In fact I would say it makes fish, and lake clam/crab, some of the most desirable starting food resources. I guess salty clam/crab are always going to stay mediocre, though. (Torusland gives every player two resources that can produce 5+ food and only require ancient techs, including at least one that only requires a first row tech - so you can see that that's what I think is approximately a minimum reasonable guarantee for players. I don't see the point in making stuff like dry rice viable - I think the mapmaker is just supposed to not treat that crap the same as a real food resource.) I am not sure, but I think I don't like the change here because it means that some starts have significantly less tech requirement than other starts. (E.g., if I have two fish, I don't need a single tech to hook up food resources! Another person might have sheep and deer, ouch.)

To approach from a slightly different angle as well, I don't agree with throwing out the whole idea of fishing being needed to fish just because the value of fishing resources can vary a lot. (The yield can vary, and the time it takes to build a WB can vary.) Again, I think this is the responsibility of the mapmaker or map script. You don't throw out agriculture because dry rice on plains is terrible compared to riverside corn. You don't proclaim that there's a fundamental problem with having to build an initial worker just because some starts are on plains hill stone and others are on grassland. No, that's a mapmaking problem. The mapmaker's job is to balance the starts and not make the fishing resources too lame or too strong. I mean hey, maybe one player gets pig and dry rice, and another player gets pig and crab. Maybe that's OK even though in a vacuum the crab looks terrible. I think the mod should focus on making all the starting techs viable. This is something you can't do at the mapmaking level. This change makes fishing a terrible starting tech, so I don't like it.

[Krill]

Again, I think this is the responsibility of the mapmaker or map script.

I think this is where the fundamental disagreement occurs. I think that it should be possible to roll a random map on some map scripts and it be playable. That entails adjusting the potential payout of seafood starts.

I'm posting from a phone so can't say much more, other than that I don't particular like this change either but it is a place to start a discussion from. There are plenty of options such as deleting Fishing entirely as a tech entirely and redistributing the affected civs starting techs that can be considered.

[suttree]

If issues with seafood are:

1. The yield can vary
2. The time it takes to build a WB can vary

then solve the problem by

A. Changing the yield (all seafood yields +3)
B. Reducing the variance on WB build times (make WB's fh units and adjust cost)

Why massacre the tech tree when you can address the alleged issues directly?

[SevenSpirits]

I don't think that works. "Playable" isn't an absolute thing, it's relative to the other starts in the game. Raising the value of all seafood resources does not fix this problem.

If, under your suggestion, I start with a banana and a flood plain and spain, and you start with three fishes and a two golds and india, my start is not "playable". This is only the beginning of what you're dealing with when it comes to map scripts, which regularly place some players on awful peninsulas, and occasionally on islands bereft of any luxuries.

[GermanJoey]

When would you *EVER* want to start with Fishing tech with this change? It seems to me that if you see seafood in your capital's BFC, you'd either want:

• Agri/Mining if you have a Farmable Food + Seafood
  
• Hunting/Mining if you have a Pasturable Food + Seafood
  
• Myst/Mining if you have only Seafood
  

With an obvious beeline to BW in any case; you could immediately chop out a workboat after improving your first land-based food in the first two cases with a worker-first start, or whip out your first worker in the latter case. You might as well move lighthouses/whales back to Sailing and eliminate Fishing completely.

I think the way ToW does it, where you can build workboats without Fishing but not work water tiles, is a nice compromise. You can finish researching Fishing from T0 with a WB start and still finish it in time to immediately improve the fish, except with a Productive civ I guess.

[Krill]

I don't think that works. "Playable" isn't an absolute thing, it's relative to the other starts in the game. Raising the value of all seafood resources does not fix this problem.

That mostly depends on the map script. I think all of the scripts you've designed would fit the general requirements for a varied balance. Some of the others, like Highlands and donut, could as well.

If, under your suggestion, I start with a banana and a flood plain and spain, and you start with three fishes and a two golds and india, my start is not "playable". This is only the beginning of what you're dealing with when it comes to map scripts, which regularly place some players on awful peninsulas, and occasionally on islands bereft of any luxuries.

Obviously extremes can't be balanced, but I don't agree that peninsula starts, or being crammed in low land starts are necessarily "unplayable". Serdoa's start in PB8 would be one such position that many think are unplayable and he almost won that game, for instance.

[Krill]

Few points before I go to sleep (this has been 1 shitty week and tomorrow is my only day off)

• Few games are played with snake pick after seeing starts, ergo being able t pick starting techs is not something I'm all that concerned about when considering balance. Blind pick is also relevant.
  
• Adjusting food values is one part of the problem but only a minor one. It is probably necessary but is perhaps the most minor issue. Most likely involves upping crab and clam to be equal to fish.
  
• Problem is defined as tech but it isn't really Fishing, the problem is workboat is not a FH unit, and dies on use. Even worker that farms a wet banana then goes on and can road, chop etc, so junk land starts still profit from having a worker but seafood starts end up getting shafted because fall behind on total worker turns for utility improvements like roads.
  
• light houses are interesting builds if cheaper depending on lake tiles (niche but true due to commerce).
  
• Giving everyone fishing is a valid option IMO (so 3 starting techs).
  
• BW is not always the right first choice.
  
• Mixed food type starts are common (perhaps more common than same food starts?)
  
• Balancing/redesigning map generator would be ideal, but I somehow do not see that happening.
  
• We need to play an archi map again.

[suttree]

[*] Problem is defined as tech but it isn't really Fishing, the problem is workboat is not a FH unit, and dies on use. Even worker that farms a wet banana then goes on and can road, chop etc, so junk land starts still profit from having a worker but seafood starts end up getting shafted because fall behind on total worker turns for utility improvements like roads.

Single use workboats really aren't an issue - just price them so the return is comparable to the present value of a worker.
For example, make a workboat a food-hammer unit that costs 28fh and returns a flat +3f on seafood.

With a 4fh start, the fish is a little better:

+3 Fish Start:
t00 Queue WB (28fh@4fh/t)
t07 Finish WB, Queue Worker (60fh@6fh/t)
t17 Finish Worker (6fh/t)
t19 RESULT: 1 worker, 6fh/t, 12fh, 3 worker turns

+3 Grain Start:
t00 Queue Worker (60fh@4fh/t)
t15 Finish Worker (4fh/t)
t19 RESULT: 1 worker, 6fh/t, 16fh

With a 5fh start, the grain is a little better:

+3 Fish Start w/ bonus:
t00 Queue WB (28fh@5fh/t)
t06 Finish WB, Queue Worker (60-2fh@7fh/t)
t15 Finish Worker (7fh/t + 5fh)
t16 RESULT: 1 worker, 7fh/t, 12fh, 2 worker turns

+3 Grain Start w/ bonus
t00 Queue Worker (60fh@5fh/t)
t12 Finish Worker (5fh/t)
t16 RESULT: 1 worker, 7fh/t, 20fh

Whatever, you can balance it however you like. Or leave it unbalanced. The point is that at the right price it doesn't matter that the worker goes on to do stuff.

[Commodore]

I guess I don't see this as a huge problem. Maybe try the no-tech WB thing at most. Have seafood starts been notably performing worse?