[SPOILERS] Pindicator plays PBEM62 (not to be confused with Twitch Plays Civ)

[SevenSpirits]

I am pretty sure I advised Gaspar to not lose to two chariots in the past. You can blame it on him.

[pindicator]

I am pretty sure I advised Gaspar to not lose to two chariots in the past. You can blame it on him.

No, the chariots are my fault. I'm not putting the effort into C&D I would have a year ago -- my C&D this game was basically eyeballing the numbers and graphs and going off of my memory. And I had planned on going axe/spear/axe, but when I assumed he had gone BW I thought that I had to get ahead of him with some axes. So my fault for not spending the kind of C&D time on this game that I would have in the past.

Is this how you repay your friends?

It's really bugging me that I can't remember or find where that quote is from in the game and find the appropriate follow-up

But with the thorn in commodores side comment, are you wanting to just play spoiler now?

I don't think there's a choice. Commodore is still dictating the tempo here. I'm still just reacting to him. I'm also still one false step away from another Zeakden disaster. The only thing I'm playing now is the foil to everyone else so they can continue to have a good game.


I feel like I'm playing the same mistake over and over again here.
1) Overplan early game and then become inflexible in responding to the game situation as it unfolds
2) Find a too-cute solution that still is just more a revision of the original plan than a proper solution to the game state
3) Get crushed by an early rush
4) Bitch and moan about the map

Maybe I need to stop playing Civ for a while

[Gaspar]

I feel like I'm playing the same mistake over and over again here.
1) Overplan early game and then become inflexible in responding to the game situation as it unfolds
2) Find a too-cute solution that still is just more a revision of the original plan than a proper solution to the game state
3) Get crushed by an early rush
4) Bitch and moan about the map

Maybe I need to stop playing Civ for a while

Maybe, but I think the bigger lesson is to be more selective about maps. I can't speak for every game but you absolutely were screwed by the map in PB19 and while you couldn't have known that ahead of time we all could have known there was no fair way to balance 7 players on a cylinder - someone was going to get boned and it was you. We should have known that ahead of time but instead we're all - HOORAY A GAME, I CANT WAIT TO PLAY and the next thing you know, somebody's taking it in the bum and in this case, it was you.

And while I can't tell for sure if you were screwed here comparitively (though it does seem it) given the life you've had recently, anything on a cramped map should have been an automatic pass. And anything on a cramped map with Commodore doubly so.

Its tough. There are a finite amount of games and mostly its the same 2-3 people who propose the games and you just want to get a game going and you think, hey, its Civ, I can make it work. But if you're mapfucked to a significant enough extent, you can't make it work. And hell, even if you could... even if in 19 you somehow got to copper and survived, you were still in the worst spot, you were just looking at 3 more months of clawing to get back to parity instead of mercifully getting out when you did. And here, I honestly don't see anyway this game was going to be fun as soon as you saw those Indian borders on t4 or whatever it was.

Bottom line, while you can probably learn a lesson about being more flexible the more important lesson is to learn to be more intractable in the game selection and map deciding process.

[Krill]

Regarded maps I've told map makers plenty of times the map was bad from a design point of view rather than balance and effectively ignored because it is too much work to restart.

In reality I think players should be more discerning about map makers and stop being so restrictive about the map set up.i also think that most people need to be taught how to make maps and how to design but really that means that the few people who can make maps need to actually write a design course. it's not likely to happen but it's really needed because there are so many frankly awful map designers. then again and anyone who thinks a cylindrical map is a good idea is a f****** moron so what do i know.

[spacetyrantxenu]

I recall your criticism from PB19 but after I'd spent what looks to be (after just now going back and checking the timestamps on the save files from when I made it) about 16 hours of time over the course of two weeks making the map, I was definitely not going to start over. Yes, the lesson I learned after that project was to question the parameters given to me, and if I was going to make another map for a future game (which I'm not) and was given those parameters, I'd either get approval to change them or not go forward with the project. I now know that even if you put a lot of work into something when the instructions are flawed, you will still get a flawed product.

In reality, players work with the map making volunteers that are willing to invest their time to create a playground for the players to explore. If no one volunteered everyone would have to roll a map script and hope for the best, which would probably be in most cases a decidedly worse product than what even a flawed human rolled map would be. If you don't believe that then by all means I can submit the first version of the PB19 map and you can see if that would have been any better to play on. Or you can believe me when I say it wasn't. I may have screwed the central player, who ended up being pindicator, but six other players 100% had a chance to win, and you can't always say that on any given map.

I guess all that is to say that people who volunteer to make maps do the best they can with 1. the time they have to devote to the volunteer project, 2., the instructions they're given, and 3., the quality of the feedback they get from map reviewers. With PB19 it happened that I had a lot of time to devote and I did so, I had flawed design parameters that ruined the project, and I received what I thought was useful feedback and took meaningful action to address the concerns that were raised. It just happens that good intentions and success in items #1 and #3 weren't enough to overcome the problems in item #2, and pindicator got the shaft because of it. So we learn and move on, in the future I'm sure no one will try to balance a seven player cylindrical map (outside of a boring loop formation). Instead, I expect they'll ask for an eighth player, a toroidal form, or some other means of enabling a viable end product. In any case, I doubt the same mistake would be made again, that's the nature of learning and improving a process.

As for this:

Regarded maps I've told map makers plenty of times the map was bad from a design point of view rather than balance and effectively ignored because it is too much work to restart.

I'm pretty sure the PB19 map setup project was one of the times you're referring to (and I do thank you for your feedback). At the time I refused to restart the 19 map I did not see anyone else volunteer to take over, so please dispense with that line of complaint. Unless players somehow come up with a way to force the use of Quality Mapmakers (however that is defined) you're always going to be working with someone who you hope makes a good map and gets good feedback and help from the community. Other than that, you can use a known quantity like one of Seven's really good and fair scripts and go with a mystery map rolled straight from the script. Otherwise you're relying on a volunteer to make a best effort to produce something for people to have fun with. With the amount of criticism every map maker ends up receiving, no matter what level of effort he invests, I don't know why anyone signs up for the job anymore. I don't see what calling anyone an awful map designer accomplishes, they were just trying to help enable other people to have some fun. It's one thing for the players to complain about it, it goes with the game, but piling on from the lurker thread is pointless. The opportunity for submitting advice and guidance is before the game started, back during the map review phase. Once the map ships, you're just piling on abuse that can't change anything.

Anyway, enough on this topic for me, really. Sorry for the threadjack.

[pindicator]

I think a cylinder can work with the right number of people. But if I recall correctly we specifically asked for a toroid in pb19 but didn't get one. I remember thinking that I didn't want to press the point and wait another week for a map. Next time I'll know better.

Or next time I'll make a map and get my revenge

Edit: Xenu, please don't take the criticism as being against you. There's been a lot of map issues and I know pb19 was your first attempt at making one. I hope you take it all as constructive and apply those with the next map.

[spacetyrantxenu]

I think a cylinder can work with the right number of people. But if I recall correctly we specifically asked for a toroid in pb19 but didn't get one. I remember thinking that I didn't want to press the point and wait another week for a map. Next time I'll know better.

The request was specifically for cylindrical, not a toroid. If toroidal had been a choice I would have 100% chosen that as it would have been possible to draw a solution to the problem where one guy gets stuck in the middle. I should have asked you guys to allow the option for a toroid but I didn't.

This is the initial PM that went out to everyone, including the map options. Toroid not included.

So, you have all expressed some interest in a new invitational pitboss, and I thought I'd go ahead and kick off this settings discussion, as TBS apears about to wrap up his dogpile on everyone else in FFH XXXIII. No rush at all, but no reason why we can't go ahead and start this discussion a get Xenu turned on to the map. Seven players interested are:
Commodore
Thoth
Dtay
The Black Sword
Gaspar
Pindicator
Lewwyn
I have a list of settings I would like to play here, but I'm open to suggestions/modifications/screams of outrage. Xenu has kindly agreed to make map already.
Settings:
BtS with deep bans
BAN Leaders: Pacal, Willem, Mansa, HC, Elizabeth, Darius, Victoria, Hannibal, Ragnar, Sury, Isabel, Bismarck, Mehmed (if someone wants to argue for a few more Creative leaders banned I'm game but they lack the synergy, and ubiquity, of their Ind/Spi/Org Expansive brothers)
BAN Civs: Inca, India, China, France, Sumer, Egypt.
Difficulty is Monarch
Speed is Normal
Vassals are off
TT is off
Huts are off
Events are off
Barbs are on
EP: on (I'm agnostic on spies/no spies)
Map Size: Standard
Map: Cylindrical, either Big & Small style continental with two main player continents, maybe even splice-style like Brick's work on PB13 (so lots of big islands to play on but you start with 2 or 3 other players) C-nav doable with galleys. Or else PB9-style Full of Resources lakes with islands added for IC-TRs. 200+ tiles per player (more spread out than normal).

If you guys subsequently asked somewhere along during the setup phase I either missed it or was too far invested to start over, in which case someone else could have taken a shot at it. But anyway, that's old and done with. I thought we were all here to pile on Gawdzak about the PBEM62 map?

[pindicator]

Sorry, see my slowly edited post above. I'm not intending this as a Xenu slam, more of a How Can We Make Maps Better thing? (But yeah, it's my thread too so there's gonna be some justifiable bitching about maps too! )

[pindicator]

You know what, the toroid comment was my mistake. It was pb18 that was requested to be a toroid and Commodore ignored the request.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Sorry, see my slowly edited post above. I'm not intending this as a Xenu slam, more of a How Can We Make Maps Better thing? (But yeah, it's my thread too so there's gonna be some justifiable bitching about maps too! )

No worries, I didn't make the map for this game, no offense taken. I'm all for us collectively learning from what works and what doesn't and always trying to do better the next time. I was mostly replying to Krill's post where I thought he went a bit too far and instead of only (productively) criticizing the end products he (unproductively) criticized the people who made them.